Landi renzo on a new 6.0 chevy
Landi renzo on a new 6.0 chevy
Friends, a month ago i bought a brand new chevy silverado 2500hd with a 6.0 liter engine. I'm satisfied with the power it produces and i haul 5 to 10000lb with it every day. In 5 weeks i have clocked 9000 km's with it. A shop in my area offers a landi renzo conversion for it which from my understanding is a vapor injection system. The injectors are timed with a signal from the ignition system and the fueling is controlled with a piggy-back ecu. The rest of the system is straight foward. What do you guys think about this system? The shop charges 5600$ for the conversion which includes labor and the tank. I was able to eyeball the injectors and they look flimsy. Also the intake manifold is drilled and when i asked how the aluminum shavings were kept from falling in the intake port i was basically told that luck has a lot to do with it. The owner was super nice and spent more than an hour with me and seemed competent. What do you guys think?
Re: Landi renzo on a new 6.0 chevy
Hi Dan,
As far as I remember your in Quebec. There are a couple of points you want to consider for your particular vehicle.
There are three main systems offered in Canada. They are BRC, Prins and Landi Renzo. Each of them are vapour injection systems functioning basically the same way. Quality varies between the systems with Prins and BRC being very similar. Landi Renzo was usually considered at the lower end of the quality among the three. Some may dispute this but the statement is generally true. The BRC and Prins injectors are very high quality. The BRC vapourizer is one of the best in the market. You can view each of the systems just by looking them up on the internet allowing you to see the differences in design and construction.
They all have the same basic features and operating parameters. The tank feeds liquid to the lockoff/filter then to the regulator/vapourizer/convertor. The convertor is a single stage regulator receiving the liquid at tank pressure, vapourizing it and reducing the pressure, then feeding it to the injectors at approximately 2 bar (28 PSI) pressure. The injectors are added to the system in two banks of 4 injectors feeding vapour to the intake manifold via plastic tubes very close to the existing gasoline injectors. An ECU is added that interrupts the gasoline injector driver (return) wires by cutting them and feeding them through the propane ECU. The propane ECU operates either the gasoline or propane injectors according to the switch position the driver selects. The switch is also the fuel gauge in most of the systems.
The alternate fuel ECU receives instructions from the OEM ECU to control the propane injector pulse width. The propane ECU uses an algorithm to set up the proper pulse width for propane. This algorithm is determined using a laptop program at the initial setup after the parts are installed. When gasoline is chosen the propane ECU just reconnects the OEM wires to each other through a relay. The OEM ECU is totally unaware it is driving propane injectors instead of gasoline injectors. The propane ECU just follows instructions from the OEM computer to richen or lean the mixtures. The switchover from propane to gas and back is normally seamless.
That being said there are some situations or operation parameters to consider. All these systems start on gasoline and switch to propane once the water temperature has reached 39C. The regulator has a specific output it can meet. If the rail pressure drops below a specific pressure the engine is switched back to gas. This can happen either running out of propane or in colder temperatures as tank pressure drops. Example: BRC systems operate at 700 MB to 2 bar pressure. This is approximately 12 to 28 PSI. Each system has a minimum it will operate at. Taking that into consideration this means in most of Canada the vehicle may be forced onto gasoline for a few weeks to a couple of months per year. Engines your size that require a lot of fuel will seldom stay on propane if the physical temperature is below -20C unless the vehicle is garaged in a heated area so the tank pressure remains high. Lastly the engine will return to gasoline during hard acceleration if the vapourizer cannot keep up.
The vapourizer must be capable of really good vapourization to supply adequate pressure to feed a GM 2500HD is a heavy vehicle with a gas guzzling 6.0L engine. Its rated at 300 HP and a substantial amount of torque. This engine is also capable of some serious RPM for it's size. This will tax the capability of the vapourizer. It would be well worth the extra money to go to 2 vapourizers. One for each bank minimizing the possibility of it switching to gasoline during colder weather although once it gets to -20 there is little that can be done to prevent it. The primary solution to this issue would be an in-tank pump to maintain the inlet pressure to the vapourizer but this adds significant cost to a conversion and these tanks are not common in Canada.
Some good news is I believe your HD has valves that will stand up to the dry fuel conditions of propane. One item to check out is if the kit includes a valve saver system. This is an add on kit that injects a small amount of lubricant into the intake to lubricate the intake valve surface. Many of the kit suppliers use these now as a precaution against premature valve wear.
Hope this helps. I can just imagine your fuel bill if your doing 8000 K monthly with a 6L GM hauling heavy loads. I owned an older model (2000) pulling an 8500 GVW trailer. It was one of the first vehicles in Canada to get an injection system. I believe they are well worth the money if a person chooses to convert. I'm biased, but I prefer the BRC system. It is available across Canada, however a local dealer may not handle it. Also because BRC considers itself to be a premium system it is commonly more expensive then the other two.
As far as I remember your in Quebec. There are a couple of points you want to consider for your particular vehicle.
There are three main systems offered in Canada. They are BRC, Prins and Landi Renzo. Each of them are vapour injection systems functioning basically the same way. Quality varies between the systems with Prins and BRC being very similar. Landi Renzo was usually considered at the lower end of the quality among the three. Some may dispute this but the statement is generally true. The BRC and Prins injectors are very high quality. The BRC vapourizer is one of the best in the market. You can view each of the systems just by looking them up on the internet allowing you to see the differences in design and construction.
They all have the same basic features and operating parameters. The tank feeds liquid to the lockoff/filter then to the regulator/vapourizer/convertor. The convertor is a single stage regulator receiving the liquid at tank pressure, vapourizing it and reducing the pressure, then feeding it to the injectors at approximately 2 bar (28 PSI) pressure. The injectors are added to the system in two banks of 4 injectors feeding vapour to the intake manifold via plastic tubes very close to the existing gasoline injectors. An ECU is added that interrupts the gasoline injector driver (return) wires by cutting them and feeding them through the propane ECU. The propane ECU operates either the gasoline or propane injectors according to the switch position the driver selects. The switch is also the fuel gauge in most of the systems.
The alternate fuel ECU receives instructions from the OEM ECU to control the propane injector pulse width. The propane ECU uses an algorithm to set up the proper pulse width for propane. This algorithm is determined using a laptop program at the initial setup after the parts are installed. When gasoline is chosen the propane ECU just reconnects the OEM wires to each other through a relay. The OEM ECU is totally unaware it is driving propane injectors instead of gasoline injectors. The propane ECU just follows instructions from the OEM computer to richen or lean the mixtures. The switchover from propane to gas and back is normally seamless.
That being said there are some situations or operation parameters to consider. All these systems start on gasoline and switch to propane once the water temperature has reached 39C. The regulator has a specific output it can meet. If the rail pressure drops below a specific pressure the engine is switched back to gas. This can happen either running out of propane or in colder temperatures as tank pressure drops. Example: BRC systems operate at 700 MB to 2 bar pressure. This is approximately 12 to 28 PSI. Each system has a minimum it will operate at. Taking that into consideration this means in most of Canada the vehicle may be forced onto gasoline for a few weeks to a couple of months per year. Engines your size that require a lot of fuel will seldom stay on propane if the physical temperature is below -20C unless the vehicle is garaged in a heated area so the tank pressure remains high. Lastly the engine will return to gasoline during hard acceleration if the vapourizer cannot keep up.
The vapourizer must be capable of really good vapourization to supply adequate pressure to feed a GM 2500HD is a heavy vehicle with a gas guzzling 6.0L engine. Its rated at 300 HP and a substantial amount of torque. This engine is also capable of some serious RPM for it's size. This will tax the capability of the vapourizer. It would be well worth the extra money to go to 2 vapourizers. One for each bank minimizing the possibility of it switching to gasoline during colder weather although once it gets to -20 there is little that can be done to prevent it. The primary solution to this issue would be an in-tank pump to maintain the inlet pressure to the vapourizer but this adds significant cost to a conversion and these tanks are not common in Canada.
Some good news is I believe your HD has valves that will stand up to the dry fuel conditions of propane. One item to check out is if the kit includes a valve saver system. This is an add on kit that injects a small amount of lubricant into the intake to lubricate the intake valve surface. Many of the kit suppliers use these now as a precaution against premature valve wear.
Hope this helps. I can just imagine your fuel bill if your doing 8000 K monthly with a 6L GM hauling heavy loads. I owned an older model (2000) pulling an 8500 GVW trailer. It was one of the first vehicles in Canada to get an injection system. I believe they are well worth the money if a person chooses to convert. I'm biased, but I prefer the BRC system. It is available across Canada, however a local dealer may not handle it. Also because BRC considers itself to be a premium system it is commonly more expensive then the other two.
Re: Landi renzo on a new 6.0 chevy
Forgot to answer regarding the injector installation. Each situation is different but it is common to drill the manifold on the engine to save labour time. If the intake is drilled on the manifold and it is plastic we used to just pressurize the manifold with air at about 10 PSI to blow the plastic out as we drilled. We would do the same thing with an aluminum manifold but add a heavy grease to the bit to collect as much material as possible. I can say with confidence that even when a small amount of aluminum entered the intake it was only noticeable in the first 5 to 10 seconds of engine operation on start up after the work was completed. The aluminum is so small, soft and light the majority was just blown straight through the engine. If a tiny piece caught on a valve surface it jus fell off within seconds. The only evidence of this was a couple of misses just after start up. We did remove some intakes if customers were aware of the procedure and were prepared to pay the extra hour or two of labour plus gaskets needed for re-installation. It was not really necessary though as long as the mechanic takes proper caution to minimize the flakes getting into the inside.
Re: Landi renzo on a new 6.0 chevy
Sorry for hijacking the topic...
I am always amazed by your knowledge C3H8!
I have BRC vapor injection system installed on my 2004 Monte Carlo SS Supercharged.
I bought the car with the system installed in UK. The intake is drilled.
I can confirm, sometimes it switches to gasoline on heavy acceleration.
Otherwise, I do not feel any difference between both fuels.
Ivo
I am always amazed by your knowledge C3H8!
I have BRC vapor injection system installed on my 2004 Monte Carlo SS Supercharged.
I bought the car with the system installed in UK. The intake is drilled.
I can confirm, sometimes it switches to gasoline on heavy acceleration.
Otherwise, I do not feel any difference between both fuels.
Ivo
Re: Landi renzo on a new 6.0 chevy
Thanks for the compliment.
Re: Landi renzo on a new 6.0 chevy
Man, you really put a lot of time and effort helping us ignorant folks. Thank you. I am still doing research on all 3 systems mentioned above, their differences and availlability in my area, also the reputations of the shops here in quebec. At this point i wouldn't mind paying an extra few hundred bucks for top quality parts. I will have a lot more questions later so thanks in advance for your patience.
The 2015 6.0 liter chevy is rated at 360hp so i definately think that i will need 2 vaporizors.
The system i was shown did include the valve saver system.
You are right about the fuel bills being hefty but in all honesty i was expecting it to be worse. When you buy this type of work truck there is no mention whatsoever of its fuel consumption. Even from GM the fuel consumption specs are posted as N/A! Expecting 26-28l / 100km (towing 10000lb) I am surprised that it consumes "only" 23-24 L/100. Empty with no trailer it takes about 15. I did the math and the system would pay for itself in under a year.
The 2015 6.0 liter chevy is rated at 360hp so i definately think that i will need 2 vaporizors.
The system i was shown did include the valve saver system.
You are right about the fuel bills being hefty but in all honesty i was expecting it to be worse. When you buy this type of work truck there is no mention whatsoever of its fuel consumption. Even from GM the fuel consumption specs are posted as N/A! Expecting 26-28l / 100km (towing 10000lb) I am surprised that it consumes "only" 23-24 L/100. Empty with no trailer it takes about 15. I did the math and the system would pay for itself in under a year.
Re: Landi renzo on a new 6.0 chevy
Your welcome. 360 HP? Wow, hadn't checked the most recent specs. Does the newer model include the cylinder deactivation allowing it to run on 4 cylinders like the 5.3 and 6.2L?
One feature I personally have always liked about the BRC system is it's changeover from gasoline to propane and back. BRC changes to propane one cylinder at a time with a manufactures setting of 3 injector cycles. Following the injector firing order it will change the first cylinder, wait three injector pulses and change the next and so on. Takes three to 3 to 4 seconds This is adjustable using a laptop and BRC program to improve the switchover by taking a longer or shorter time. The switchover in most cases is so smooth you can't even feel it.
Other systems change all 8 cylinders at one time and this can lead to hesitation or stalling during certain temperature ranges. Most of the manufacturers have adjustments to correct for this as much as possible but the Canadian cold climate has been a challenge sometimes. As far as I know BRC is the only manufacturer with this feature. Other than that most of the systems can be programmed for specific areas of operation. Each has there own style of communication cable and there own program. A close analysis usually reveals the programs look different but actually work quite similar.
One feature I personally have always liked about the BRC system is it's changeover from gasoline to propane and back. BRC changes to propane one cylinder at a time with a manufactures setting of 3 injector cycles. Following the injector firing order it will change the first cylinder, wait three injector pulses and change the next and so on. Takes three to 3 to 4 seconds This is adjustable using a laptop and BRC program to improve the switchover by taking a longer or shorter time. The switchover in most cases is so smooth you can't even feel it.
Other systems change all 8 cylinders at one time and this can lead to hesitation or stalling during certain temperature ranges. Most of the manufacturers have adjustments to correct for this as much as possible but the Canadian cold climate has been a challenge sometimes. As far as I know BRC is the only manufacturer with this feature. Other than that most of the systems can be programmed for specific areas of operation. Each has there own style of communication cable and there own program. A close analysis usually reveals the programs look different but actually work quite similar.
Re: Landi renzo on a new 6.0 chevy
Hi, my truck doesn't have direct injection or cylinder de-activation. The engine produces 360hp and 380 lb/ft of torque of which 90% of it is availlable from about 2000rpm. I use it only as a work truck but on occasion i drive it without the goose neck. With 4.10 gearing and the 6l90 six speed and limited slip differential, (traction control off) it can smoke the tires very well, thank you. And coming out of a curve in third (manual mode) at 80 km/h its acceleration to 180km/h is impressive. On a race track, of course, with a professional driver under controlled conditions... I could only imagine how well the 465 hp aluminum block 6.2 sulverado 1500 performs the same manoeuvres.
Anyways that BRC system is sounding more and more interesting. If a local shop can install a landi renzo, i guess that they should be able to install a BRC? I will try to contact a distributor and see if i can purchase a kit and have it installed. As far as i can tell, no quebec based shops offer this system. Comments?
Anyways that BRC system is sounding more and more interesting. If a local shop can install a landi renzo, i guess that they should be able to install a BRC? I will try to contact a distributor and see if i can purchase a kit and have it installed. As far as i can tell, no quebec based shops offer this system. Comments?
Re: Landi renzo on a new 6.0 chevy
I have not thought about this switching feature... it is indeed flawless switching from gasoline to LPG... you only would know when it happens only by watching light going from red to orange and finally green.
I would vote for BRC
Can some explain what "valve saver" system does?
How can I check if I have one installed?
Sorry for hijacking thread...
Thanks,
Ivo
I would vote for BRC
Can some explain what "valve saver" system does?
How can I check if I have one installed?
Sorry for hijacking thread...
Thanks,
Ivo
Re: Landi renzo on a new 6.0 chevy
I don't think this would be considered Hijacking. The product is referred to in the original post I believe. A Valve Saver is a mechanical/vacuum/electronic means of adding a special valve lubrication to the intake air stream. It is an add on bottle allowing it to be filled with a special lubrication product, usually about 1 or 2 pints (interpret this a very thin oil). The bottle is attached to the intake manifold just behind the throttle body plates with a 3/16" or 1/4" vacuum hose. The old systems vacuum line had a mechanically adjustable control valve in it that could be adjusted to limit the flow of liquid on the older original systems. Newer systems have an electronic control that opens or closes a valve to control the flow. Miniscule amounts of the lubrication are allowed to enter the intake airstream which allows the intake valves to be lubricated to slow down valve recession. Newer vehicles have had some issues with valve recession on gaseous fuels.
The newer system is much better. If you can envision it the older system was hard to adjust. Since vacuum was used the vacuum at idle is always higher at idle and lowest at full throttle. Getting a precise control mechanically was difficult. The electronic version allowed the valve to be further closed at idle and opened a little more for cruise or WOT.
Light duty trucks have been the main issue as it appears the manufacturers have chosen to use a lower quality material on the valves or valve seats. This is acceptable on gasoline as it provides good surface cooling and some cushioning when the valve closes. This liquid cooling and cushioning does not exist on gaseous fuels so someone out there came up with the idea of the Valve Saver. HD trucks usually had a higher quality material and were less of an issue. This problem was somewhat manufacturer oriented too. The next generation of engines which will be direct injection instead of SFI should not have this issue since only air will pass the valves. The valves should be made out of tougher materials making them 100% compatible with gaseous fuels.
The newer system is much better. If you can envision it the older system was hard to adjust. Since vacuum was used the vacuum at idle is always higher at idle and lowest at full throttle. Getting a precise control mechanically was difficult. The electronic version allowed the valve to be further closed at idle and opened a little more for cruise or WOT.
Light duty trucks have been the main issue as it appears the manufacturers have chosen to use a lower quality material on the valves or valve seats. This is acceptable on gasoline as it provides good surface cooling and some cushioning when the valve closes. This liquid cooling and cushioning does not exist on gaseous fuels so someone out there came up with the idea of the Valve Saver. HD trucks usually had a higher quality material and were less of an issue. This problem was somewhat manufacturer oriented too. The next generation of engines which will be direct injection instead of SFI should not have this issue since only air will pass the valves. The valves should be made out of tougher materials making them 100% compatible with gaseous fuels.