new guy needs help

Propane, Butane, LPG, GPL, C3H8, C4H10
reds150
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:07 am

new guy needs help

Post by reds150 »

Hi everybody,new to this site and i need some help straight up,i have a 1989 f150 running on full time lpg.I would like to know if you guys can advise me on what intake manifold to use for my truck.
At the moment it runs a Gas Research 440[flows about 454cfm @28"]carby which also acts as the throttle body for the efi.
I have been running it as full time gas,taken fuel tanks,lines,pumps etc out due to laws out here in Australia concerning engine swaps and going on full time gas.
I am replacing the 302 with a 351w which has the following
Dart Pro 1 170cc heads with 1.94/1.60 valves and 62cc chambers
Camtech cam with 210/217 dura @.050 and 463/487 lift and 112lsa
Genie headers[try y]with 1.5 primary and 1 7/8 secondary pipes and full 3 inch system from headers to rear of truck.
Flat top pistons,bored .030 over and balanced
the truck weighs in at 4,720 lb has the factory 5 speed manual and 4.10 rearend.
I have read that many differant ideas on what intake to use,i am thinking of using another efi intake and just block of the injector holes,but then you hear or read to use a single plane or duel plane intake,it gets a bit confusing.
If any body can give me a guide in what to use i will be grateful,hi to all on the site and thanks for any help forth coming.

franz
Posts: 1205
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 7:57 pm
Location: Central Texas
Contact:

Re: new guy needs help

Post by franz »

There are several versions of the EFI intake manifold which is really nice, and one I would really consider. However, there are just as many "X" type manifolds on the market that mount the carb in the conventional position. The Edelbrock Victor JR is an old favorite of mine. If you stay in the Edelbrock line, you should find a good selection. With the modifications you list, I would lean towards a manifold rated for moderate performance, not all out racing.

Franz

storm
Posts: 796
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:10 pm
Location: NSW, Australia

Re: new guy needs help

Post by storm »

Reds150 be aware that even though you are fulltime LPG you must still run the emissions equipment the truck was built with, except for the fuel evaporation canister (especially if you are in NSW). This is due to its age. If it was built prior to 1986 (the introduction of Unleaded petrol) you would be ok to run it completely free of emissions equipment if on LPG only and with the petrol system removed. ADR27 applies to vehicle built before July 1st 1988 along with ADR37. After July 1st 1989 ADR 27 is no longer used and is superseded by ADR37. Additionally ADR27 is enforced by the states/territories while ADR37 is enforced by the federal transport authorities and the states must apply the law to the appropriate vehicles.

With regards to the manifold I would stick with the EFI manifold. I would stay with the EFI manifold simply because they are so good and optimised for torque while keeping within emissions. Depending on what manifold you have I would use 2 GRA carbs (just like Ford used 2 throttle bodies). I run 1 GRA480 on a 5.7 litre VT (Series 1) Holden V8 (the bent banana manifold) in my 1989 Toyota Troopcarrier (I was required to fit a full VT Commodore petrol emissions system) but would like to run a 350 and 510 as a staged dual TB setup.
Fuel flow requirements calculations
Engine air flow requirement calculation: CFM = Cubic Inches x RPM x Volumetric Efficiency (VE) ÷ 3456

reds150
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:07 am

Re: new guy needs help

Post by reds150 »

thanks Franz and Storm thats helped me heaps,dont have to worry about adr,s storm, my truck does not have them on its compliance plate and i talked to a rms engineer and a very strict vehicle inspector and they said to take all efi off if i was running full time lpg and reason for this is my effie is over 2800kg,s gvm and at that weight they are excempt.

storm
Posts: 796
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:10 pm
Location: NSW, Australia

Re: new guy needs help

Post by storm »

reds150 wrote:thanks Franz and Storm thats helped me heaps,dont have to worry about adr,s storm, my truck does not have them on its compliance plate and i talked to a rms engineer and a very strict vehicle inspector and they said to take all efi off if i was running full time lpg and reason for this is my effie is over 2800kg,s gvm and at that weight they are excempt.
Taking EFI off is not the same as taking emission controls off. My Troopcarrier doesn't have a compliance plate listing the ADRs either but that does not mean the vehicle is not supposed to comply with them.
Fuel flow requirements calculations
Engine air flow requirement calculation: CFM = Cubic Inches x RPM x Volumetric Efficiency (VE) ÷ 3456

storm
Posts: 796
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:10 pm
Location: NSW, Australia

Re: new guy needs help

Post by storm »

I've had time to find the VSI (Vehicle Standards Information) about LPG. It is VSI14 and can be downloaded at the RMS website or at the link in this post. The relevant section is quoted below, emphasis added by me.
page 8
Vehicle Standards Information Sheet No. 14
What are the pollution control equipment requirements for LPG vehicles?

Usually, no re-testing of engine exhaust emissions is required for LPG conversions if a vehicle is intended to operate primarily on LPG. However, catalytic converters and associated emission and engine control systems of any vehicle originally operating on unleaded petrol must remain operational. In the case of vehicles which are capable of using either petrol or LPG, all emission control systems, fuel emission systems and devices and engine control and management systems, including catalytic converters and oxygen sensors, if originally fitted, must remain operational. Allowances are made for minor air cleaner and carburetion/injection modifications required to fit the conversion. The heated air intake system and original air cleaner can be removed and replaced by a new unit if it is compatible and recommended by the system manufacturer.

From January 1994, new LPG installations on vehicles originally designed to operate with a closed loop engine management system, that is, one which monitors the exhaust emissions and adjusts the amount of fuel being delivered to the engine, must also be installed with a closed loop engine management system for the LPG fuel system that results in exhaust emission levels for LPG operation that are not inferior to the levels produced by the original vehicle
In other words, regardless of what your engineer and/or inspector says (I'm also an authorised Rego examiner with the extra LPG authorisation) and/or the weight of your vehicle you must retain the emissions controls if the vehicle was originally designed to use ULP. All petrol powered vehicles (regardless of weight) after 1986 use ULP. The weight of your truck does not exempt you from any legal requirement that other ULP vehicles are obliged to follow. If you can get your inspector and engineer to provide official paperwork to say otherwise please post it and I'll take a look.
Fuel flow requirements calculations
Engine air flow requirement calculation: CFM = Cubic Inches x RPM x Volumetric Efficiency (VE) ÷ 3456

reds150
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:07 am

Re: new guy needs help

Post by reds150 »

Direct from the RMS on thursday....Greg if you are running on straight gas and have all petrol or diesel devices REMOVED you do not need to comply with emmision ADR,s.
The first engineer told me when i first decided to go full gas was because of the gvm i did not need to run a cat,i have been on full time lpg since about 2003 and yep i,m a vehicle inspector as well[not gas accreditated] but before i went full gas i made sure what i could do,didnt have it in writing,but this time i have.
If you are on full gas and had to have all emmisions its because of the donor vehicle,any engine swaps the donor engine must retain all emission requirements if applicable to that engine.
Dont forget full[straight]gas is no tanks,lines,filters or pumps all gone.

storm
Posts: 796
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:10 pm
Location: NSW, Australia

Re: new guy needs help

Post by storm »

reds150 wrote:Direct from the RMS on thursday....Greg if you are running on straight gas and have all petrol or diesel devices REMOVED you do not need to comply with emmision ADR,s.
Sorry but that's just heresay. If the RMS decided to call you on this and they provide a court with the VSI I linked to and you provided what you just posted you'd be laughed out of court.
reds150 wrote:The first engineer told me when i first decided to go full gas was because of the gvm i did not need to run a cat,i have been on full time lpg since about 2003 and yep i,m a vehicle inspector as well[not gas accreditated] but before i went full gas i made sure what i could do,didnt have it in writing,but this time i have.
Then post a copy of it so we can see it. Until you can post a picture of the actual letter, and it be able to be read, you have not provided anything to refute the actual RMS VSI that says "However, catalytic converters and associated emission and engine control systems of any vehicle originally operating on unleaded petrol must remain operational."
reds150 wrote:If you are on full gas and had to have all emmisions its because of the donor vehicle,any engine swaps the donor engine must retain all emission requirements if applicable to that engine.
This is correct, how is this any different to your situation? Your truck come to Australia with emission controls on it, it must retain them as the VSI says, you changing the engine to a larger engine doesn't change this. You are swapping a 351 into a 302 vehicle so the vehicle must either retain the 302s emission controls or you fit the emission controls that come off the vehicle (or equivalent vehicle) the 351 come out of if the 351 is a newer engine with stricter emission controls (such as the Euro standards).
reds150 wrote:Dont forget full[straight]gas is no tanks,lines,filters or pumps all gone.
Fuel lines, fuel filters, and pumps are not emission control devices. The VSI is clear, EGR, catalytic convertor, etc, must all remain.

I'm sorry if you believe I am wrong but as I said the VSI which is readily available for all to read is clear. If you have more than heresay (and I don't mean that to sound bad but in things like this official written documentation has more value than something typed up on a forum) please post it so if anyone else has a similar issue we can give them the correct information and they can then use it to uphold their rights.
Fuel flow requirements calculations
Engine air flow requirement calculation: CFM = Cubic Inches x RPM x Volumetric Efficiency (VE) ÷ 3456

C3H8
Posts: 1129
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:23 pm
Location: Winnipeg, Canada

Re: new guy needs help

Post by C3H8 »

This one I have been staying out of since I have no knowledge of the Australian regs. I was confused by one of your statements though. You claim your truck is 4,720 LBs in your opening post. You then claim that your truck is exempt as the reg applies only to vehicles under 2,800 KG's. Well, 2,800 kilos is about 6,160 Lb's. According to your opening post your 1,440 LB's (654 KG's) lighter then that. How is your truck exempt due to weight? Did you quote your truck weight incorrectly?

reds150
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:07 am

Re: new guy needs help

Post by reds150 »

over 2800 not under,and not a phone call an email with attachment with all the trimmings you would expect from the nsw government,you know,dept name and head of dept,rms logo,all the trimmings,but it has been fun guys,cheers and see ya,s later.

storm
Posts: 796
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:10 pm
Location: NSW, Australia

Re: new guy needs help

Post by storm »

reds150 wrote:over 2800 not under,
You said the regs apply to vehicles under 2800, C3H8 is spot on the money and your truck is lighter than the weight you claim exempts you from having to retain emission controls.
reds150 wrote:and not a phone call an email with attachment with all the trimmings you would expect from the nsw government,you know,dept name and head of dept,rms logo,all the trimmings,
I never said telephone call, I said call you on this (in other words call your bluff).
reds150 wrote:but it has been fun guys,cheers and see ya,s later.
So it was all about having fun.
Fuel flow requirements calculations
Engine air flow requirement calculation: CFM = Cubic Inches x RPM x Volumetric Efficiency (VE) ÷ 3456

jono
Posts: 365
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:46 pm
Location: New South Wales, Oz

Re: new guy needs help

Post by jono »

there are some confusing intrpretations of some rules here in Australia. The F150 probably lies amongst the different rules for vehicles of its type. The petrol Toyota Landcruisers of same era and later do not run O2 sensors for their efi, so end up getting freshair non feedback gas systems

storm
Posts: 796
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:10 pm
Location: NSW, Australia

Re: new guy needs help

Post by storm »

I have to disagree Jono. There is nothing confusing about retaining the equipment the vehicle was built with.
Fuel flow requirements calculations
Engine air flow requirement calculation: CFM = Cubic Inches x RPM x Volumetric Efficiency (VE) ÷ 3456

jono
Posts: 365
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:46 pm
Location: New South Wales, Oz

Re: new guy needs help

Post by jono »

I'll give you that but a lot of different things happen out there. For one, I think red150 won't be back.

He mighta come and gone a little confused - he was just asking comment on manifolds at first yeah ?

From memory - single plane is best for old style smogger LPG ?

Storms recommendation to keep the original intake - you can also go IMPCO's adaptor (still available six months ago) for this twin throttle manifold and shove a 425 up the line a little - went for a ride in an auto 150 with a stroker crank and this IMPCO arrangement, auto, hauled some ass :)

I like the ICV [individually constructed vehicle] category so, admired an engineered [ responsibility lies with the engineer?] , vehicle built within last ten years runs dedicated LPG and no cats! Being an ICV has no original emssions gear!

Seen an import came to Oz from Japan, customs treated as a parts car - must be how it was declared parts or race import to avoid some taxes. Was registered in Victoria. Bought by NSW resident - rejected by authorities as it was not imported to be driven on the roads. Some sort of alert went out to other states for it could not get new registration application back in Victoria, ACT would not accept it as an establish registration. All states and territories dealt with stated it would not be able to be registered again - the previous rego it got must have been an error. That is confusing. You want more confusing? The car went through rigourous ICV engineers scrutiny and got certified as an ICV and registered as an ICV. Does it look like an ICV? - nope, looks factory built to me, but papers now say it is an ICV.

I had an MGB started out life as LHD, got a RHD conversion with engineers certification and was fine until trying to register it in another couple of states 20 years later. The engineer was not on the list of that states approved certifiers. Speaking with several very intelligent and helpful technical advisers still came to blanks, other than to be told to read the rules - it needed to be recertified by an approved engineer- signatory. I read my rules - rule 302 ? Last line, left some room open for exceptions to be considered or to that effect. Rang back to ask who and how to action the last line - faxed all the documents off to the manager and got a very special number to acompany the little MG around for its lifetime without the need to recertify !

Also confusing to some may be if you live in remote area, need an AUVIS and not one within so many kilometres an e-safety accredited inspector may perform the task of his superior counterparts? Must be a bulletin on that somewhere.

GVM is Gross Vehicle Mass and then there is the tare weight - confusingly the road going weight, or dry weight, not sure, am confused, ned to swat up on what matters :) The tare weight figure is used by authorities to determine, among other things , the annual rego fees to be paid :(

Speaking of confusing, we weren't we ?

gross vehicle mass, and tare weight appear in the applications, both in kilograms, one is mass, one is weight, try understand that without too much in the physics class http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_versus_weight. When are they gonna use GVW and TW ??

just going off to view online descriptors......

1989 not in there, but 1987 4x2 would be used ordinarily , but they are 4 speed not 5 as in reds 150, which, again, is confusing , following my comment on confusing ?? Next years entry in the vehicle descriptors is 1990 and it is the 351, so verbal advice from the tech standards gents would be to use the 1987 listing ? yeah?

Love to see a pic of your compliance plate Greg !

1620kg tare weight [3571 lbs]

and has a GVM of 4127kg [9098 lbs] with an asterix on the ADR compliance plate and it was GVM that Greg red150 was quoting in how his advice was dished to him if i am not mistaken

hey, we have an inspector stoush :) one has LPG accreditation, the other does not. Either at AUVIS level ? Blue slip ?

one inspector is hearing what he wants to hear from the verbal advisers, the other inspector is disputing the issue with facts

Healthy discussion here gents - better than some near illiterate, poop head blue slippers I have met !

Maybe just hold back on a bit of th biff boys !!

It does not help things when authorities allow a pass mark for LPG certifiers/installers course to be just 70% and AUVIS , what was it 80%, course instructors information conflicts with auditors understanding ......like I said, confusing :)

More confusing is when 01 JULY 1989 is used for a date of compliance beginnings. Laws state vehicles made after this date must comply. At least one state or territory insists that the compliance plate date of compliance is the manufactured date even though it can be one or more months later for the actual compliance. Imagine having a car stated that it was built June 1989, but compliance plate is dated August 1989. At least one state or territories law makers would insist it comply with new rules of after 1 July 1989. Thankfully NSW records both make date and compliance dates on their records. Confusing ....

storm
Posts: 796
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:10 pm
Location: NSW, Australia

Re: new guy needs help

Post by storm »

If the vehicle was anything but an Australian built F150 (yes we built them here and fitted fully imported engines) then there may be some confusion as to the status of the vehicle.
However, regardless of imported or ICV what the vehicle was first registered with determines what rules apply to it.
It would have helped to have it cleared up what the vehicles registered status actually is (Aus built or imported I doubt imported because they were built here anyway).
Sorry but the lack of evidence indicates, to me, that this was just someone, as reds150 himself said, having fun.
The purpose of my posts was not to get into "the biff" but to point out, to anyone in a similar situation in NSW, that there are clear rules, where they can be found, and regardless of any heresay the rules are what is applied.
Coming onto a forum and telling the world that the rules of the relevant authorities don't apply to a certain vehicle because of a certain factor and that some person told you over the phone that this is true encourages people to ignore the rules.
It is, as an Authorised Registration Examiner in NSW, my responsibility to clarify that this is not the case.
He mighta come and gone a little confused - he was just asking comment on manifolds at first yeah ?
Yes Red asked about an appropriate manifold. I think, considering the VSI, the discussion about Emission Controls, which the manifold is part of, was appropriate.

With regards to Lb vs Kilo and Tare vs GVM. I have to admit you have confused me there. Your saying kilo the OP said Lb.

Am I AUVIS (which is Blue Slip) Accredited? No but I have been through the process so many times I that I know what is involved.

I used to work for a Japanese Grey Import shop, regardless of folklore those cars had a couple of days work done on them to bring them up to ADR standards and this was back in the late 1990s before they tightened the rules on Grey Imports.
If we didn't bring them up to standard our import licence would have been revoked. In the end WA was the only state bringing them in and not modifying them apart from fitting side intrusion bars.
WA come into line eventually because people were moving to other states and no insurance company would insure the vehicles.
These last 2 paragraphs are not really on topic but are in reply to your post.
Fuel flow requirements calculations
Engine air flow requirement calculation: CFM = Cubic Inches x RPM x Volumetric Efficiency (VE) ÷ 3456

Post Reply