Rich mixture and burning valves

Propane, Butane, LPG, GPL, C3H8, C4H10
Mattelderca
Posts: 236
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:56 am
Location: Whitby, Ontario, Canada
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Re: Rich mixture and burning valves

Post by Mattelderca »

Uglydog56 wrote:factory 460 timing chains are 8 degrees retarded.
Did Ford make any adjustments to this for different models? Car vs truck or large truck vs light truck?

And if 400hpongas wants to start a new thread to discuss whatever with steps, he should do so and not get off topic here.
We were discussing a loss of power in a ford truck, in case we need a reminder. We would not want to discourage any new members from posting on this very informative forum. (thanks Frank) :D

firstgen89sho
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2008 5:44 pm
Location: Lashburn Saskatchewan

Re: Rich mixture and burning valves

Post by firstgen89sho »

In the later models (EFI engines) Ford did put a straight up timing chain set in, but I had since changed that, to an older style that is suppose to be straight up as well, bit for the life of me I cannot remember right now.

dutchlincoln79
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:20 pm

Re: Rich mixture and burning valves

Post by dutchlincoln79 »

ey, ey, keep on going!
I want to overhaul my new engine also.
i have the new KB 137 flattops pistons lying around here! I LOVE to hear/see everything with a 460FI and propane!!
More info, more info!!
This winter i will be re-building my 460. CR will be approx. 10.5:1 if i believe the CR calculator. Engine is .030 over.
Cam is the slightly modified computer compliant torque cam.

main question: WILl i gain a lot in HP and Torque?

Thanks!!
(first (re)build, just curious and a little nervous..)
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Steptoe
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Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:32 pm
Location: JAFA , New Zealand

Re: Rich mixture and burning valves

Post by Steptoe »

KB 137 flattops pistons....If the engine is for a street engine increase the piston to bore about 1/2 thou above spec..if for racing about a 1/1000"
From memory KB used to have LPG tolerances on their web site
Personally I prefer ACL pistons for LPG (and Petrol) ACL has done and devalipoed a lot of research over the yrs on their pistons and LPG, and I believe maybe the only company that has done so.
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firstgen89sho
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2008 5:44 pm
Location: Lashburn Saskatchewan

Re: Rich mixture and burning valves

Post by firstgen89sho »

dutchlincoln79 wrote:ey, ey, keep on going!
I want to overhaul my new engine also.
i have the new KB 137 flattops pistons lying around here! I LOVE to hear/see everything with a 460FI and propane!!
More info, more info!!
This winter i will be re-building my 460. CR will be approx. 10.5:1 if i believe the CR calculator. Engine is .030 over.
Cam is the slightly modified computer compliant torque cam.

main question: WILl i gain a lot in HP and Torque?

Thanks!!
(first (re)build, just curious and a little nervous..)
Thing to remember is, if you are running strictly propane, and especially a carburated propane system, then you do not have to worry about being computer friendly....

what is your total application? running the computer in a dual fuel application? running dedicated propane with a propane injection setup? running a dedicated propane carb with a feedback system? or running a propane carb without a feedback system?

I am running a dual fuel system, running a single propane carb, utilizing a feedback computer system piggybacked onto the factory ECM.

Steptoe
Posts: 1504
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:32 pm
Location: JAFA , New Zealand

Re: Rich mixture and burning valves

Post by Steptoe »

main question: WILl i gain a lot in HP and Torque?
Yes If the cam, engine matches the fuel, along with gearing and what the end use rpm range is

Think of it this way....bit simplified
1950s with british pool fuel had about 65 octane, compressions around 5.8/6
They ran well
Now ppl put 91 octane in , I had a therory they used to run better, so I messed with droping the fuel octane to low 70s
They sing along, and a huge econmy difference on a 'square cam'
Then fuel octanes rose, and compressions with it, and lot more power with better cams to match...
The higher the octane, along with more compression (dynamic compression ratio)in the power range the more power.
Torque...that will depend on the cam...If a street car, go for torque rather than HP
Simplified...torque gets u off the mark, pulls the trailer up to speed
HP, is to over come weight and wind resistance at higher speed.

If a street car, under carb a little, and under cam quite a bit...sure you will miss having the bragging rights of the dyn testing, but it will pull away and be far more responsive in your rpm range.
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dutchlincoln79
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:20 pm

Re: Rich mixture and burning valves

Post by dutchlincoln79 »

ah well, i actually don't really care about tejh Hp range.
As they say "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races"...
My intended application is purely (vapour) propane injection, but the BRC (and all other that i know of) use to piggyback on the gasoline injection system, and even start on gasoline, before switching to propane...
I rather ditch the gasoline in the first place.

Application will be a street driven car (and my '79 lincoln would be a heck of a sleeper here... :) ) i'd like to have fun now and then, giving that Volkswagen Golf VR-6 a hard time at the traffic light...
Further on: it is just a family car that needs to have a good fuel economy.
That's why i want to put the original E4OD behind it, and give it 2 programs: Sleeper, and Family car...
All possible with the Baumannator unit.. :)

anyway: those are the plans. Now i need to realise them.
Never (re) build an engine before, so there are some mild guesses, wich hopefully come to a good end. (like the higher CR KB137 hypereutectic pistons)

Reason for the KB choice, is that the engine was originally rebuilt with the KB138 pistons (-22cc) by the original owner. (no, engine never ran yet, so replacing them is possible)

Its also a tad hard, due the fact there's nothing for US ford around here, not even a lot of knowledge...
Making it hard, and nescecerely to read a lot... (not a problem, but not so much to find about the EFI 460's...)

Thanks for all the input!

Stef.
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Steptoe
Posts: 1504
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:32 pm
Location: JAFA , New Zealand

Re: Rich mixture and burning valves

Post by Steptoe »

Never (re) build an engine before,
OK basic principles.
Do everyting by the book, no 'shortcuts' and clean, that means the bench, stands, tools, floor and surrounding area.

Heads and deck get skimed for flatness
Valve guides and valves if need them...match spings to the cam, replace if do not measure in spec.
Mic the bores to match individual pistons before final hones.
DO NOT ass-u& me (assume) the machinist has machined correctly, the ultimate responsabilty is on the assembler to check tollerances etc are correct...not the machinist, after assembly.
measure bearing and journals for accuracy and plasti gauge
use teflon thread sealler on head /valley cover bolts..espec if they go into the wayer jacket.
replace oil pump, water pump and pull the headers off the radiator and manually clean.....ALL no matter how new they are.
Get the engine dynamically balanced, marking all bolts and holes from flywheel to crank pully...this enables a fast reving, smooth riding, long lasting engine.

Use recommened lubes on the cam, bearing etc...Make sure you have oil pressure and oil to valve train before firing.
Double check everything, the re check again....do not ass-u & me (assume) anything.
Critical engine break in is in the 1st 20 secs of firing, and shortly after as the rings bed in....do not over advance or lean the egine in this period...the most common causes of piston skirt failure/collapse...when fires take stright up to around 2000/2500 rpms and hold there...you should hear/feel the rings bed in.

Some say to fire up on petrol..all my LPG engines I have fired on LPG
Never work on the engine or leave the engine unattended without the valley cover, carb open.

Cleaningness, double check everything, dont assume....I cannot emphisise these basics enough.

Oh and DO NOT use steel wool or scotch bright pads.

Im sure I have missed a few other may like to add.
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dutchlincoln79
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:20 pm

Re: Rich mixture and burning valves

Post by dutchlincoln79 »

Thanks for the advices.
Teh engine IOS completely rebuilt, but there were some things that drawed my attention that i didn't trust, so i pulled everything...
When the engine is open anyway, i ordered the new pflattop pistons, and want to change them.
This is also a good opportunity to re-assemble the engine correct, and measure everything.

Some examples:
the holes in the valleypan had casting debris that were peeled off by hand.
The camshaft retainer plate completely gone... (not assembled / forgotten?)
timing chain was 2 teeth off
piston rings weren't gapped (ouch!!) to proper values
camshaft had no break-in lube on it...( :( )


so, i'm glad i pulled the engine... :)

Although: everything IS new, and machining HAS been done...
So, its a good start for an (easy?) rebuild...
Barn is dusty at the moment, but before i start, i want to clean everything with a dry cloth and brake cleaner, and after that lube everything.
I have all winter to do so :)

In the first place, i want to do the break-in with a impco 425 on it. Then put the engine in the car with the 425 on it, and then make all wiring and injectors for the final steps...

one thing at a time.
Maybe more time-consuming, but very controllable, and easy to troubleshoot if/when something goes wrong.
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