Okay, I hear you - lets do it right. MLG, thank you for the offer, but I am in Central CA and it looks like you are in the San Diego area, ~200 miles south. I can't see any way of getting the car to your shop without, well, filling it up "as is" and driving it down there.
That said, if you have used tanks which are suitable for an in-trunk install, I'd be interested in buying them, never mind the dimensions. In the meantime, I'll keep looking for a tank locally - Delta Liquid has a small stash but their last quote was a bit steep... I'll try to wheedle them down. They are also qualified to do an informal safety inspection when the install is complete.
I'll keep posting pics of the progress - comments and criticism are always welcome. Thanks again for the sound advice, -A
P.S. Anyone need a forklift tank?
Conversion complete, tank won't take fuel! HELP!
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MLGPropane
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:57 pm
- Location: Southern California - Gardena, Tustin, Corona, Temecula
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what are you using the vapour line for?
isnt the blowoff/protection valve the blue cap covered one that is not routed to exterior as you claimed?
the 'all-round' mounting is f-ugly
if that is the line I think it is the hose is not legal for lpg and if you look up compatibility on the Aeroquip literature it give a "conditional" usage. I run that line in my 4x4 as well but know it is not 'legal'
New Tank Recommendation
In case anyone is considering a similar installation for their Volvo, I just got a quote from Sleegers for a new ASME tank. Based on the dimensions of the 10 gallon lift truck tank, Sleegers has recommended their PN Q12X32SBTW, which is a single tank 12" in diameter, 32" long overall, with a vapor box. Rather than being held-down with straps, this tank has welded-on mounting brackets. Their price is C$870 FOB SEI, London, ON and delivery is 4-6 weeks.
Michael. I think alehander said that he has run additional hoses from his blow-off valve and his spit valve after the photos were taken. It looks to me that the hose going to the vapor connection is from the remote fill valve.
Michael. I think alehander said that he has run additional hoses from his blow-off valve and his spit valve after the photos were taken. It looks to me that the hose going to the vapor connection is from the remote fill valve.
outlets
Each outlet has a function:
The fill valve has a double backcheck flow device. One check valve is inside the threads, the other is further up. If one fails, the other is there to serve as redundant. It should not be removed and a hose installed in its place. If the hose were to be damaged, nothing would stop the flow of fuel, even if it were a pin-prick.
The pressure vent is spring loaded on a forklift cylinder at 375 psig. ASME requirements for interior tanks is 312.5 psig.
The fill valve has an excess flow device to limit the flow of fuel if the line were severed.
The 80% spit valve has a limiting orifice (.054") to reduce the flow even if open.
Also, in the US (Canada different) all LPG tanks must withstand a static force equal to 4 times the weight of the tank plus fuel in all directions without slippage or deformation (paraphrased the NFPA 58).
The installation does look first rate though, technically speaking, but there are numerous legal violations.
Franz
The fill valve has a double backcheck flow device. One check valve is inside the threads, the other is further up. If one fails, the other is there to serve as redundant. It should not be removed and a hose installed in its place. If the hose were to be damaged, nothing would stop the flow of fuel, even if it were a pin-prick.
The pressure vent is spring loaded on a forklift cylinder at 375 psig. ASME requirements for interior tanks is 312.5 psig.
The fill valve has an excess flow device to limit the flow of fuel if the line were severed.
The 80% spit valve has a limiting orifice (.054") to reduce the flow even if open.
Also, in the US (Canada different) all LPG tanks must withstand a static force equal to 4 times the weight of the tank plus fuel in all directions without slippage or deformation (paraphrased the NFPA 58).
The installation does look first rate though, technically speaking, but there are numerous legal violations.
Franz
Attacks?
Sorry to disagree, but what you may assume are attacks are in fact an attempt to direct the OP to a legal installation.
There are several LPG professionals on this forum (myself included as a teacher, research engineer, former R&D installer) whose responsibility, no, read that as a professional duty, to inform the individual when something is amiss.
If you re-read the posts, at no point are the "attacks" pointed at the individual, just that the installation does not meet code. In fact, earlier posts state that the installation is just that, nicely done, no argument there.
In the past, there have been too many "professionals" attempting to make installations that were illegally done which came back and haunted the industry. We have ourselves to blame for that, not policing the industry. We need to set an example by adherence, not by accident investigation (I do that too!).
Not that too many years ago, I documented Nitrogen and Oxygen bottles repainted for CNG cylinders, using brake lines for high pressure fuel lines, welding equipment pressure regulators, carburetor adapters made from wood PVC pipe, and bondo, check engine light bulbs pulled out, electrical extension cord used for wiring, wire nuts too.
On one vehicle, I counted over 40 individual violations, it appeared that there was a greater attempt to circumvent the code than adhere to it.
Just venting, but I hope you get my point.
Franz
There are several LPG professionals on this forum (myself included as a teacher, research engineer, former R&D installer) whose responsibility, no, read that as a professional duty, to inform the individual when something is amiss.
If you re-read the posts, at no point are the "attacks" pointed at the individual, just that the installation does not meet code. In fact, earlier posts state that the installation is just that, nicely done, no argument there.
In the past, there have been too many "professionals" attempting to make installations that were illegally done which came back and haunted the industry. We have ourselves to blame for that, not policing the industry. We need to set an example by adherence, not by accident investigation (I do that too!).
Not that too many years ago, I documented Nitrogen and Oxygen bottles repainted for CNG cylinders, using brake lines for high pressure fuel lines, welding equipment pressure regulators, carburetor adapters made from wood PVC pipe, and bondo, check engine light bulbs pulled out, electrical extension cord used for wiring, wire nuts too.
On one vehicle, I counted over 40 individual violations, it appeared that there was a greater attempt to circumvent the code than adhere to it.
Just venting, but I hope you get my point.
Franz
Franz, I seem to remember seeing a 4 wheeler with a BBQ bottle in an orange crate with some straw in it and a bungee cord holding it all together, looking more like a birds nest than an alternative fuel tank installation. I'm not saying we all will make code, but if we keep getting our wrists slapped now and then, it will at least teach us which IS the correct way to do things.
Johnny O
Bad installations
One prominent website harping LPG with diesel shows that tank. All we ask is if it is done, do it right. Its not that difficult to do it right the first time. If you have any questions about compliance, C3H8 in Canada is well versed and I will try and help with the US. There are others on this forum who are very helpful too.
Franz
Franz
Re: Attacks?
I assumed nothing.franz wrote:Sorry to disagree, but what you may assume are attacks
I stated that the replies, including my own, could be interpreted as attacks which is why I added an "attaboy" to soften my previous post.
Frank, I agree completely with the safety and regulatory issues. Michael, thanks for the clarification.
In answer to some of the last questions about the installation:
1. The port labeled "vapor" housed the fill valve. This valve is still connected to the same port, now via a section of fuel line.
2. Both the blow-off and 20% lines have been routed to the car's exterior, this is NOT shown in the pics.
Now, a couple more questions:
1. As per Michael's post, is the line I am using NOT legal for road installations? This is the only line I have ever seen on an LPG-powered vehicle. It is sold and used as such by a local LPG fleet operator. It is not 'vapor' line but the same stuff I am using for the tank->lock-off section.
2. Per itsmejo's & Franz's posts - are you suggesting there is no way to remotely (body) mount the fill and 20% valves away from an in-trunk mounted tank on a length of fuel line? I understand that doing so creates a length of fuel line which will allow the tanks to empty if punctured. Is this type of install simply not done? Would adding a stand-alone check valve (on the fill line) at the tank body bring this up to code?
I will not try to salvage this (forklift) tank installation, but the last two questions apply if I were to use a "proper" tank, mounted in the same location. Am I using the wrong line? Will I only be able to use tank-mounted fill and 20% valves? Thanks again, -A
In answer to some of the last questions about the installation:
1. The port labeled "vapor" housed the fill valve. This valve is still connected to the same port, now via a section of fuel line.
2. Both the blow-off and 20% lines have been routed to the car's exterior, this is NOT shown in the pics.
Now, a couple more questions:
1. As per Michael's post, is the line I am using NOT legal for road installations? This is the only line I have ever seen on an LPG-powered vehicle. It is sold and used as such by a local LPG fleet operator. It is not 'vapor' line but the same stuff I am using for the tank->lock-off section.
2. Per itsmejo's & Franz's posts - are you suggesting there is no way to remotely (body) mount the fill and 20% valves away from an in-trunk mounted tank on a length of fuel line? I understand that doing so creates a length of fuel line which will allow the tanks to empty if punctured. Is this type of install simply not done? Would adding a stand-alone check valve (on the fill line) at the tank body bring this up to code?
I will not try to salvage this (forklift) tank installation, but the last two questions apply if I were to use a "proper" tank, mounted in the same location. Am I using the wrong line? Will I only be able to use tank-mounted fill and 20% valves? Thanks again, -A
Lenin zhil, Lenin zhiv, Lenin budet zhit'
tanks
There are motorfuel tanks specifically made for mounting in the interior of vehicles, called a vapor seal tank. They have hinged and sealed housings covering the tank valves and fittings which allow for remotely plumbed fill valves, vent lines and motorfuel exits. These exit via a duct, about 3" diameter which is fastened to the outlet of the sealed housing.
NFPA requires that the housing be accessible after installation and that the housing be opened without the use of tools. This is to allow for the quick shutoff of a motorfuel line in case it is punctured, and if any leaks occur in the tank fittings or hoses, that an leak be vented to the outside of the vehicle.
All motorfuel tanks in the US require a secure mounting capable of withstanding 4 times the weight of the fuel tank plus fittings in all directions, Canada is different, requiring more static force.
Lastly, Michael, please understand that there is no barb intended, this is no doubt a good installation with best of intentions. Alehander did a first rate job with what he had and the knowledge he had on hand. Many people do not know of the national standards covering the installation of LPG systems, but again, may people simply do not care, period.
When my computer comes back up on line, I will send the board administrator some photos to post showing some right ways to install, and the wrong ways.
Franz
NFPA requires that the housing be accessible after installation and that the housing be opened without the use of tools. This is to allow for the quick shutoff of a motorfuel line in case it is punctured, and if any leaks occur in the tank fittings or hoses, that an leak be vented to the outside of the vehicle.
All motorfuel tanks in the US require a secure mounting capable of withstanding 4 times the weight of the fuel tank plus fittings in all directions, Canada is different, requiring more static force.
Lastly, Michael, please understand that there is no barb intended, this is no doubt a good installation with best of intentions. Alehander did a first rate job with what he had and the knowledge he had on hand. Many people do not know of the national standards covering the installation of LPG systems, but again, may people simply do not care, period.
When my computer comes back up on line, I will send the board administrator some photos to post showing some right ways to install, and the wrong ways.
Franz
I will ramble for a bit here, good luck making any sense of it 
as is noted several times in this thread the laws in Canada and the US differ.
I fall in the "do not care what is legal" category.
safe I am all for.
I want to do safe conversion on old hobbyist vehicles, the fleet stuff that Franz is into holds zero interest for me
the line you are using appears to be aeroquip 1503 or an equivilant.
1503 has a liner that gets an "conditional" rating for LPG use and IIRC failing grade for Butane.
I THINK the rating is to steer you to the legal line.
aeroquip sells the correct line, I can pop the hood on my daily driver to get the number off it if you need.
I am in Canada
Here the line must have a label stating compliance.
heresay - the connectors must be crimped and not reuseables. someone more versed in regs can prove or dispell that for us.
conversions here are red tape laden. I can make 3000+psi hydraulic lines but apparently only magic shops can make a 200psi lpg line.
cost of lines here is $10-15 a foot plus $10-15 for fittings.
so far I can't find custom lengths or the actual supplier, or how someone gets certified to make the line.
a hydraulic crimper setup is under $2000 ready to run.
my chevy 4x4 conversion was plumbed entirely in 1503 and reuseable fittings.
heck I even did the water lines in it and soldered SAE connections to the heater core.
I converted my powersteering lines to JIC-06 crimps.
as is noted several times in this thread the laws in Canada and the US differ.
I fall in the "do not care what is legal" category.
safe I am all for.
I want to do safe conversion on old hobbyist vehicles, the fleet stuff that Franz is into holds zero interest for me
the line you are using appears to be aeroquip 1503 or an equivilant.
1503 has a liner that gets an "conditional" rating for LPG use and IIRC failing grade for Butane.
I THINK the rating is to steer you to the legal line.
aeroquip sells the correct line, I can pop the hood on my daily driver to get the number off it if you need.
I am in Canada
Here the line must have a label stating compliance.
heresay - the connectors must be crimped and not reuseables. someone more versed in regs can prove or dispell that for us.
conversions here are red tape laden. I can make 3000+psi hydraulic lines but apparently only magic shops can make a 200psi lpg line.
cost of lines here is $10-15 a foot plus $10-15 for fittings.
so far I can't find custom lengths or the actual supplier, or how someone gets certified to make the line.
a hydraulic crimper setup is under $2000 ready to run.
my chevy 4x4 conversion was plumbed entirely in 1503 and reuseable fittings.
heck I even did the water lines in it and soldered SAE connections to the heater core.
I converted my powersteering lines to JIC-06 crimps.