"Legal" conversions

Propane, Butane, LPG, GPL, C3H8, C4H10
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Dylan86GL10
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:36 pm

"Legal" conversions

Post by Dylan86GL10 »

No doubt, there is a lot of DYI installs of LPG. What are the legal requirements for converting a car? According to the DOE website, you basically have to have someone else install the system.

Is there anyone that has insight into this? Or there is an issue with running illegally? In VA we state visual inspections and I'm not sure how it would impact that.

Thanks

turbo matt
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 4:51 pm
Location: southern oregon

Post by turbo matt »

so far mine has not been hassled but really has not been checked by anyone either. when i failed the smog test, the inspector didn't care about anything at all other than his sniffer. mine has been pro. converted back in the day so it is legit i guess.? now i can get tags cause the age limit for my truck is up. hahahahahahahahahhaahaahhahahhahaaaahahaahhaa :lol:
86 f-100 302 turbo draw through,
two 425 mixer at 10 psi
or more!

franz
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Rules and regs

Post by franz »

In the US, any vehicle converted to propane HAS to meet the NFPA 58 standard which is enforced by any legal authority having jurisdiction (police, fire dept, DOT inspectors, State police, etc).

If for some reason your vehicle is involved in an accident totally unrelated to LPG, and a post collision inspection by a third party identifies a not to code installation, your goose is cooked. Been there, done that, (on the inspection side), its incredible how a good lawyer can twist the cause of an accident around.

Spend the time and do it right, its no more difficult than shoestringing the project.

Now that said, there is a difference between illegal installations and unsafe installations. Your system can meet US and/or Canadian codes for a safe installation but not meet the emission requirements.

Franz

Dylan86GL10
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:36 pm

Post by Dylan86GL10 »

Is it unheard of to install a system and then have it "inspected" by a propance installer?

franz
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Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 7:57 pm
Location: Central Texas
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installations

Post by franz »

It mostly depends on where you are. Being in Texas, the end consumer may perform their own intallations as long as they comply with the NFPA and the emissions are not degraded.
How the vehicle complies with NFPA is up to the installer (the car owner), but if at any point a professional LPG technician is involved, the TOTAL responsibility of the legality of that system falls to that professional!

As for emissions, just like working on a gasoline vehicle and installing aftermarket performance products like an intake manifold or carburetor or removing a catalytic converter that are NOT EPA and/or CARB approved is illegal. Will you get caught? Depends on how astute the annual inspector is or if you get caught at a roadside emission sniff test.

There are more and more of them popping up around the country. In air control areas like California and certain parts of the country, a slap on the wrist is mild compared with vehicle confiscation possibilities. I saw it happen in Los Angeles several years ago.

Franz

Dylan86GL10
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:36 pm

Post by Dylan86GL10 »

I don't have any issue with meeting the emissions part. That is my goal with this system and I have programmable spark, wide band O2, and a CO meter to une with. Here in South Virginia, everything is based off visual inspection and not tailpipe. I haven't had problems with aftermarket gas parts but then again I go to inspection places I know. I would think most inspections would just look clueless at a LPG system. I rather have to meet a tail pipe sniffer and not pop the hood.

There is also concerns over the AFT (alternative fuel tax) here in Virginia. You have to pay $0.19 a gallon on your state taxes since LPG is not taxed for highway use. I am highly competant to NFPA shouldn't be an issue, just thought getting a "professional" blessing would add to the legality.

Is anyone on here a "liscensed installer" or know the procedures for such? The EPA website is vague and makes comment to being a "small volume" manufacturer that has to submit test reports showing emissions compliance for approved "engine families".

Thanks again.

turbo matt
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 4:51 pm
Location: southern oregon

Post by turbo matt »

.19 cents a gallon huh? i have only ran across one idiot that tried to charge me road tax. he was an old guy at the gas dealership. no gas station attendant gives a hoot. if i ever got charged for road tax i would demand to get paid back the road tax that i have payed on my dirt bike, lawnmower, tiller,and my old drag car! always get nickel and dimed to death.
86 f-100 302 turbo draw through,
two 425 mixer at 10 psi
or more!

MLGPropane
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Location: Southern California - Gardena, Tustin, Corona, Temecula
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Post by MLGPropane »

Actually the gas station owners typically do "give a hoot" especially when faced with fines for not charging the proper road taxes... Which almost always will result in a Board of Equalization audit and some pretty massive headaches for the distributor or station owner (at least in the states)...

Melvin
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 8:33 pm
Location: Calgary Canada

Post by Melvin »

You know road tax may explain something I thought was really weird.

In 1990 I travelled from BC to California in my single fuel propane /6 Dodge. We took I-5 to CA state highway 46. 46 to Paso Robles and then 101 to Santa Barbara. We were in a bit of a hurry (girls awaited) so we drove straight thru taking turns driving. I don't know what it is like now but in 1990 it was really difficult to find service outside the hours of 8AM-5PM in California.

Anyways we pull up to the junction of 46 and 101 at about 3:30AM. There are gas stations at the interchange none of which has propane. I notice that there is a K-9 unit parked at the one so we pull in thinking that even if the cashier is clueless about automotive propane (unfortunately very common at the time in CA) the cop might know of a filling station. No luck from either but one of the customers suggests heading North a few miles as there is a diner/service station that he thinks has propane. We're getting down to about a 1/6 of a tank so we decide to go out of our way a bit.

We find the place but "Sorry, we stopped selling about 6 months ago". The cashier gives us a lead on a Chevron south of the junction that she's pretty sure has propane. It's in the right direction so off we go keeping an eye peeled for the gas station.

We find the place about 5AM. Yep, there is a great big beautiful vertical tank. Problem is the station doesn't open till 6AM. We weigh the risks of running out (I'm down to 1/8 of a tank) vs wasting the time and decide to catch a short nap. We park in some museum parking lot near by and catch a few Zs.

Back to the gas station we see the attendant busy opening up so we pull up next to the tank and wait. 10 minutes goes by and now the attendant is sitting on a stool at the counter apparently oblivious to our need. So I go and get him and ask for a fill and the guy comes right out. Once out there he refuses to fill up my car saying he can't do it. In fact he is looking at me like I'm a crazy person for even asking. I point out the adaptor from 20lb tank to auto filler that I can see in the tanks' cage but still he refuses.

What are you going to do? So we pony up, roll into Santa Maria on fumes (thank diety for inaccurate fuel guages) at about 7:30 where we fill up at a Shell station after waiting for the certified guy to come in at 8AM.

I now wonder if the reason the first guy couldn't fill us up is because he didn't want to mess with remitting the road tax?

cow_rancher
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Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 1:15 pm

Post by cow_rancher »

Probably.... when I move to AZ from NM and pulled into the local propane dealer, he filled me up ok, but then they have to back out the sales tax and add the road use taxes. The had no problem doing that because they had a full time cashier.

alehander
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Post by alehander »

Say, Melvin, next time you're coming down here, check out www.c-5.org. I operate the site and keep tabs on all alt fuel stations in the (San Luis Obispo) County, LPG included. I have updated pricing (monthly) and I make a point of driving out to the stations and actually making sure they exist and sell LPG into vehicles. The site also has 2 links to national alt fuel infrastructure databases - these are not quite as reliable and should be checked out in advance. Cheers, -Alex
Lenin zhil, Lenin zhiv, Lenin budet zhit'

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