Propane on a motorcycle

Propane, Butane, LPG, GPL, C3H8, C4H10
geraldm
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Location: Pump handle Saskatchewan

Propane on a motorcycle

Post by geraldm » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:11 pm

Snapshot 1 (10-12-2012 2-02 PM).png
changing my drag bike with a 13b rotary engine from a 86 RX7 over to propane and am looking for a source for a propane cylinder that will be approved for a motorcycle application and can be readily filled .. ( not a bulky barbecue style but more of an oxygen style bottle ,) anyone have any previous experience with this problem ?? if so any help in the right direction will be great thank-you
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C3H8
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Location: Winnipeg, Canada

Re: Propane on a motorcycle

Post by C3H8 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:53 pm

A tank supplier in London, Ontario, named Sleegers has been known to custom design a tank in the past. Check the number here http://www.sleegers.ca/solutions/tanks/. Talk to Joe Adams if possible. He used to be the chief engineer and GM. If he is still there he might be able to help you. I don't expect it will be cheap though.

C3H8
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Re: Propane on a motorcycle

Post by C3H8 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:54 pm

Meant to mention that in the past they made some tanks as small as 8 inches in diameter.

kuchen
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Location: Stuttgart/Germany

Re: Propane on a motorcycle

Post by kuchen » Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:19 am

There are scooter Tanks available in Europe
http://www.stako.pl/index.php?id=produc ... 11&lang=en
although I guess you won't pass too many gas stations with just 4.8L LPG

geraldm
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Location: Pump handle Saskatchewan

Re: Propane on a motorcycle

Post by geraldm » Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:31 pm

kuchen wrote:There are scooter Tanks available in Europe
http://www.stako.pl/index.php?id=produc ... 11&lang=en
although I guess you won't pass too many gas stations with just 4.8L LPG
I expect these are the ones that Bumpstart was hinting at . I only make max 200 ft. runs so that might be ok . Thanks Kuchen

C3H8 thanks for the input .

Just about ready to order stuff for the change over , this is what my engineer Bumpstart and myself have agree on for the Dragon which is a tried and proven system .
Model 200 mixer with a 2 barrel holley base . as I ran a 500 Holley previously and really don't want to go to the work of putting another intake together.
Model E reg and electric cutoff . High flow . If anyone has any suggestions please feel free to post , My threads are always open to post ANYTHING that might be of interest .
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bumpstart
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Re: Propane on a motorcycle

Post by bumpstart » Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:39 am

be aware some small motor and scooter tanks may be configured for vapour uptake,,
and are not suitable unless the fittings can be exchanged for auto capacity liquid pickups ( and filler and lockoffs )
and are designed mostly to fit in a helmet carry case

im thinking this tank wants to mount in the space below the seat and so would need to be a small short barrel in shape
, and not so wide that it interferes with the riders seating position




likes the link to the local producer who can make a custom tank and provide the appropriate support for the fittings
.. despite the cheap cost ,,and the loopholes competition rules can bring
.. the scooter tanks avail from some countries would lack many of these nice features you REALLY want

these extra safety features are highly desirable in the event of mishaps and make the entire fit-out safer than a blow through petrol setup would have been
and can be configured to interlock the bike and shut it down in the advent you come off it

the tank will be the single most expensive part in the system
,, but overall the tank, lines, lockoffs, convertor and mixer are still much cheaper than custom surge tank,, lift pump, efi pump, injectors and fuel reg ( and ECU and manifolds and throttle body ) required with the efi path

maybe send that engineer an email.. and a picture of your cool trophy .. and ask him if he wants to come on board with a special tank and a promo deal

.. cant imagine they do many small tanks but the one off unique application in competition does reek of good product exposure
when the going is hard, don't retard, remember your lubrication

kuchen
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Location: Stuttgart/Germany

Re: Propane on a motorcycle

Post by kuchen » Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:42 am

bumpstart wrote:be aware some small motor and scooter tanks may be configured for vapour uptake...
The tank I linked is designed for euro-style multivalves, so depending on which type of MV you bolt on, you'll get vapour or liquid phase at the outlet port.

http://www.tomasetto.com/a_ENG_8_1.html
Type AT02 is for liquid, Type AT11 for vapour withdrawl. Flange to the tank is the same afaik.

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Steptoe
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Re: Propane on a motorcycle

Post by Steptoe » Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:14 pm

was down getting the acetylene tanks re filled yesterday and the agents Skil had some LPG ride on mowers on display....with reasonable sized tanks... maybe worth a look into???
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JrsPropaneParts
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Re: Propane on a motorcycle

Post by JrsPropaneParts » Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:33 pm

I am not fimiliar with the rules or regulations for putting a propane tank on a motorcycle. But if you are looking for a lighter smaller tank they make a fiberglass propane tank and they even have a #10 pound propane tank that is pretty small very light and pretty cool looking. You can also see how much fuel is left in the tank which is one of the best inventions for LPG yet lol. One manufacturer is Ragasco there is the Lite cylinder company.

Like someone else mentioned before make sure you get the correct tank some a vapor and some are liquid. I don not know what type of fuel system or what brand you are looking into but if you gave us some more info on that we might be able to assist you some more.

JR

geraldm
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Location: Pump handle Saskatchewan

Re: Propane on a motorcycle

Post by geraldm » Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:32 pm

First off I do appreciate the input from everyone , I have pondered over all suggestions and am still undecided as exactly what to do but it's nice to have a few different avenues to look down ..

JRS propane parts .. Well I will tell you what I know hopefully Bumpstart my engineer will be along and give you the straight goods , I understand we need to run liquid tank for the volume of gas needed to produce the goals we want from the little engine .

As Far as rules go I'm not real concerned with that aspect so much ( not to many rules in the world of grass drags )That said the function is getting bigger every year so we do need to at least have common sense in mind , also some day I would love to give the dragon a run or two down the 1/4 mile and they have a million rules .right now on dirt he runs an average of 68 MPH in 150 ft. I can't imagine what it will be like with twice as much HP.

what I require is a safe vessel that won't endanger of course myself but more importantly the people that come out to watch the rest of us fools race in case the bike goes down and hoses get ripped off or what ever , the bike produces a lot of exhaust flame at least on gasoline and large amounts of heat but it goes like stink . I know the chances I'm taking , most of them don't . there will be some type of shut down tip switch incorporated with the cutoff solenoid. I do agree with Bumpstart that the propane is probably safer than packing 3.5 gallons of gasoline in two low , rear slung , fire extinguisher saddle tanks . Enough said, thanks for the time and effort everyone please feel free to comment , that is how good ideas come about . Gerald
Now how the hell did that happen ?

geraldm
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:53 pm
Location: Pump handle Saskatchewan

Re: Propane on a motorcycle

Post by geraldm » Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:26 pm

JrsPropaneParts wrote:I am not fimiliar with the rules or regulations for putting a propane tank on a motorcycle. But if you are looking for a lighter smaller tank they make a fiberglass propane tank and they even have a #10 pound propane tank that is pretty small very light and pretty cool looking. You can also see how much fuel is left in the tank which is one of the best inventions for LPG yet lol. One manufacturer is Ragasco there is the Lite cylinder company.

Like someone else mentioned before make sure you get the correct tank some a vapor and some are liquid. I don not know what type of fuel system or what brand you are looking into but if you gave us some more info on that we might be able to assist you some more.

JR


JR That is the TYPE of tank I am thinking about but more cylindrical and maybe 6 -8 in diameter and 16 - 20 inches long I seen one somewhere in my snoops but just don't remember where , It was a bare cylinder just with the fiber - resin wrap on it no cover ( maybe they were just showing what the wrap looked like ). No offense but although the right idea perfect new product idea but they are UGLY :) one of those puppies strapped on his back would turn Dragons' Breath from a drag bike into a beast of burden .

Quite a hoop for the propane minded people to find something pleasing to the eye as well as functional for this type of application . I realize the market might be small but one would think there would be an array of shapes and sizes of vessels available .
Now how the hell did that happen ?

C3H8
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Re: Propane on a motorcycle

Post by C3H8 » Thu Nov 28, 2013 1:38 am

The wrapped tanks are generally made for CNG. They are capable of holding 3600 PSI of compressed natural gas. The same technology is being considered for propane and may have actually been completed in the past couple of years. Basically a lightweight extruded aluminum shell is wrapped with fibre glass several times. It's main benefit is a tank that weighed 200 to 250 pounds now weighs less then 50 Lbs. It was desperately needed by the CNG industry as the heavy tanks were murder on vehicle suspensions which severally limited fuel capacity and truck GVW's. Several companies in NA make them aimed at the bus industry. Dynatec in Calgary is one of them. Others reside in the US. They can generally be found on the internet listed under the keyword "CNG composite tanks".

geraldm
Posts: 90
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Location: Pump handle Saskatchewan

Re: Propane on a motorcycle

Post by geraldm » Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:22 pm

I did send a note to Sleegers about tanks , If I do hear back from them in all honesty I doubt I can afford their products but would sure be great to have one made in the size a person wants . Yea I bet the company in Calgary is where I saw the bare tank on their web site .

Maybe I'll just make my own mount them right where the gas tanks were hung and fill them with a larger remote tank . wouldn't be any different than vehicles I have seen , matter of fact my Travco motor home has a big tank 50 liters or so strapped underneath for the fridge , furnace , water heater and what not , so you open the bottom swing up door everything looks respectable but go underneath an look where the hoses and stuff are , no shields are missing but everything is directly exposed to stuff, stones ,what ever coming off the front wheels . and to top it off it"s older than dirt and that system at least here in Saskatchewan never needs to be certified or inspected ... There I'm better now ..

I know there is someone out there that has made there own propane vessels from some other type of container with success . There is always a way , Take Bumpstart for instance I don't think you guys know what a talented man you have on board ,he can totally rebuild a Mazda rotary engine using only a coconut and a stick and then go out and win a race and still have enough coconut left over to munch on .. if you want to share that conversion from different tank to propane ,, feel free to PM me I'm solid I won't rat you out . 8) Enough said, thanks,more input please we are gaining here ..
Now how the hell did that happen ?

geraldm
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:53 pm
Location: Pump handle Saskatchewan

Re: Propane on a motorcycle

Post by geraldm » Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:48 am

I have found a company that claim they can supply most any shape or size light weight aluminum vessel with the appropriate thread for LPG and can also supply the tank valve , The one valve they show , it sounds like it is capable of delivering either liquid or vapor from 2 different ports and 2 different taps on the same valve ,depending on what the customer wants . I sent them a mail on Friday and will for sure post the names and e address if it turns out to be what we are looking for. Anyway it always sounds good but seldom turns out . I will post either way .

QUESTION ?? How far away from the regulator can the supply tank be when feeding liquid and does it matter the relation of height between the supply valve and the inlet on the regulator ? seeing as most any vehicle I have looked at the tank is most always lower than the rest of the system I presume it is acceptable to have the supply tank lower than the reg on my system also , but if I decide to mount higher ( not what I want as it changes my center of gravity ) will I have problems . ?
Now how the hell did that happen ?

C3H8
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Location: Winnipeg, Canada

Re: Propane on a motorcycle

Post by C3H8 » Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:42 pm

The only thing that matters is the correct tank orientation. It will have a specific bottom and top. The distance does not matter for your application, or the position (high or low). Since propane is a pressurized fuel it will deliver no matter where the tank is located. As a liquid that is vapourized by the heated regulator is expands 270 times as it changes from a gas to a vapour. The only consideration would be a larger supply line for really long distances. example 50 to 100 feet or an application that requires a large amount of fuel in a very short time. Your application should be fine with the standard 3/8 ID fuel line commonly used.

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