programmable ignition

Propane, Butane, LPG, GPL, C3H8, C4H10
andrewmx83
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 11:18 am

Re: programmable ignition

Post by andrewmx83 »

Ive run the megasquirt system on my lpg engine and was fairly impressed with it.
only real issue i had was the firing order on the coil packs not being what i expected, took a bit to sort out and get the engine running.
the software is ok and the hardware seems pretty reliable. i like the backup of the EDIS box giving fixed 10 deg timing if the MJ poo's itself.

the power of the spark is just mental compared to a dizzy based, single coil setup. I had to be careful how i connected the timing light and where i sat the leads as the spark will just approx 2 inches (!) from an uninsulated terminal.

I recently did my second MJ install, on a friend's gasoline powered race car. the engine was a very hot austin A series, weber fed. It took a casual afternoon of work to install the system, followed by a quick road tune. i bought the systems online in a logical order and it essentially fired first go with no hassles.
install edis box & loom, twist but not solder CAS wires
crank and measure CAS signal to determine polarity
engine fires and runs 10deg BTDC
wire up megajolt and connect laptop
engine fires and responds to timing changes
build tacho booster
road tune
car now chirps into 4th gear on warm semi-slicks. friend is stoked and so am I.


in short, i would recommend the megajolt controller to somebody looking for a good standalone ignition system.
i will soon test if the EDIS ignitor box can drive a waste COP setup and report back.

BigBlockMopar
Posts: 394
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:29 pm
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: programmable ignition

Post by BigBlockMopar »

I've just installed the BlackBox timing control in my Dart to be able to finetune the ignition advance curve.
Stock Mopar distributors are a pain to change the ignition's timing curve on so I wanted to try a modern and easy to tune, digital approach.

Upto today I was using a Mopar chrome ECU with a Blaster 2 coil and a stock distributor with a modified advance curve.
As I was always wondering if some more power could be found in certain RPM-areas I decided to get one of these ignition control boxes and have a go at it.

There are a number of ways to connect the BlackBox to the current ignition system. I chose to let the BlackBox control the coil directly and bypassing the Mopar ECU, but I think I'm noticing a lack of spark-energy from the perhaps longer dwell of the Mopar Chrome box.
Will try to do a rewire tomorrow to see if I can keep the Mopar ECU in the loop.
https://www.bigblockmopar.com
'73 Dodge Dart - 360ci - 11.3:1cr
MegaSquirt + HEI 7-pin timing control - Edelbrock AirGap - Cold Air Intake
IMPCO E / 425 mixer - A518 OD-trans - 3.55 gears - 225/50/17" tires.

BigBlockMopar
Posts: 394
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:29 pm
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: programmable ignition

Post by BigBlockMopar »

I've put the BlackBox ignition on the backburner for now.
It doesn't seem (easy) to keep the Mopar ECU incorporated in the system and when I used a GM HEI module to be used a trigger, the engine developed very long starting issues. Engine took so long to fire that I sometimes thought it wouldn't start all. Since this is my daily driver I can't have that.

In the short while I was able to play with the timing map and such I did find out the engine liked a faster ignition curve, so I modified the current mechanical durve in the stock distributor to come up faster, and the engine sure liked that. Almost feels like a different engine at low rpms.

In the mean time I'm looking for a better way to hook up the BlackBox.
https://www.bigblockmopar.com
'73 Dodge Dart - 360ci - 11.3:1cr
MegaSquirt + HEI 7-pin timing control - Edelbrock AirGap - Cold Air Intake
IMPCO E / 425 mixer - A518 OD-trans - 3.55 gears - 225/50/17" tires.

bumpstart
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: programmable ignition

Post by bumpstart »

andrewmx83 gave you a huge hint how to make the black box work for cranking at a fixed time position

ie... incorporate a edis ignition module

in EDIS.. the module has two roles

it does your VR signal conversion for the ecu,, and it sends the ecu a 5V square wave signal
and the ecu is in charge following your look up timing table and for calculating when to commence coil charge
and thus the ecu sends a command back to the edis
where it works as a dumb ignitor obeying the ECU 's command and triggering your coil packs


when under a certain rpm the EDIS box will shortcut the process and cut the ecu out of the loop
and so will set the timing fixed at the optimum start timing
( say 10 BTDC,, depends where the missing tooth pickup falls )

the trick is knowing the order on an edis 8 ignitor ( or edis 4 box for wasted spark )
so you have the right commands going to the right coil pack
when the going is hard, don't retard, remember your lubrication

flatblack
Posts: 225
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:42 am

Re: programmable ignition

Post by flatblack »

I wonder will the blackbox work on my small block chevy, i have a mallory unilite dist tho. Im not sure how to lock that out, ill have to look into it. This seems like a good way to make the timing curve needed.

BigBlockMopar
Posts: 394
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:29 pm
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: programmable ignition

Post by BigBlockMopar »

I've locked out a spare distributor to play with the Blackbox. Swap the distributor, hook up the Blackbox and reset timing.
At the moment I've found a different HEI module which works much better (The first one I had caused the long starting issues).

I had some starter kickback issues when I recently hooked up the BlackBox again, but that turned out to be a tuning issue in my timing table.

Currently I'm running the HEI module only as ignition system but I've been having some sparkplug cable issues on my distributor cap. Some of the 8mm wires couldn't seat properly in the cap and caused some arcing and missing sparks at the plugs. (Mopar distributor caps have female fittings)

I did mount an MSD Blaster SS e-coil in favor of the Blaster 2 canister coil, but can't say I've found much improvements over this yet.

I will be reconnecting the BlackBox pretty soon again to play around with the curve again, as I feel the engine is lacking power in mid to high rpms.
https://www.bigblockmopar.com
'73 Dodge Dart - 360ci - 11.3:1cr
MegaSquirt + HEI 7-pin timing control - Edelbrock AirGap - Cold Air Intake
IMPCO E / 425 mixer - A518 OD-trans - 3.55 gears - 225/50/17" tires.

gottago
Posts: 205
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 7:39 pm
Location: British Columbia Canada

Re: programmable ignition

Post by gottago »

I see the attraction to using the black box, the simplicity and the price are hard to beat. However I can't help noticing that both users posting here are having issues with it and don't seem to be able to get it working efficiently especially with the hei dizzy. Perhaps the mega jolt or similar is a better option for a basic programmable system?

storm
Posts: 796
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:10 pm
Location: NSW, Australia

Re: programmable ignition

Post by storm »

gottago wrote:I see the attraction to using the black box, the simplicity and the price are hard to beat. However I can't help noticing that both users posting here are having issues with it and don't seem to be able to get it working efficiently especially with the hei dizzy. Perhaps the mega jolt or similar is a better option for a basic programmable system?
Or perhaps a prograamible distributor. They aren't really expensive and they are a fit and run setup adjustable by laptop and then take the car for a drive and see if the changes made any difference.
Fuel flow requirements calculations
Engine air flow requirement calculation: CFM = Cubic Inches x RPM x Volumetric Efficiency (VE) ÷ 3456

gottago
Posts: 205
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 7:39 pm
Location: British Columbia Canada

Re: programmable ignition

Post by gottago »

Any suggestions for a standalone programable distributor for an early gen sbc. No crank trigger non efi. Haven't found anything all that cheap or easy yet.

storm
Posts: 796
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:10 pm
Location: NSW, Australia

Re: programmable ignition

Post by storm »

gottago wrote:Any suggestions for a standalone programable distributor for an early gen sbc. No crank trigger non efi. Haven't found anything all that cheap or easy yet.
I never said cheap I said not all that expensive. There is a difference. How much time, fuel, and money are you willing to spend to get something you don't know if it will work or not. The way I think about it is I spend a little more at first and save money after instead of spending lots of little bits of money and then have to fork out more money to get what I need.
1. http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/m ... /chevrolet
2. http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/m ... /chevrolet
Fuel flow requirements calculations
Engine air flow requirement calculation: CFM = Cubic Inches x RPM x Volumetric Efficiency (VE) ÷ 3456

Steptoe
Posts: 1504
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:32 pm
Location: JAFA , New Zealand

Re: programmable ignition

Post by Steptoe »

The way I think about it is I spend a little more at first and save money after instead of spending lots of little bits of money and then have to fork out more money to get what I need.
I think that comment hits the nail on the head..talking mechanical dizzies here...
Once on has the timing parameters dialed are dialed in and have your tuning specs, there is no need for adjustments... the tool goes back in the tool box... like a data logger...
So one can dial in adjusting timing using expensive electronic methods or mechanically ... electronic means not having to re set the dizzy each 'run', but do have to mess around wiring up , getting it to run right and reliable.....
Im a great fan of data loggers and similar 21 st century tuning tools to read results....but have a hard job justifying electronic timing adjustment costs and time on carbed engines.... unless one can adjust timing right thru the range at different loads AND adjust mixtures at the same time... monitored injection engines.....
My Spelling is Not Incorrect...It's 'Creative'

storm
Posts: 796
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:10 pm
Location: NSW, Australia

Re: programmable ignition

Post by storm »

Steptoe wrote:So one can dial in adjusting timing using expensive electronic methods or mechanically
It comes down to how much time are you willing to spend. Time is money.
Steptoe wrote:electronic means not having to re set the dizzy each 'run',
Electronic means not leaning over a hot engine setting timing advance, driving, leaning over a hot engine rest timing advance a bit more, drive, lean over a hot engine again cause you just caused it to detonate with your last adjustment.

Electronic means I put my dizzy in, adjusted it with the laptop, drove my car, adjusted it again, drove my car and was happy. At no point in time did I have to lean over a hot engine, play with rubber bands or anything like that. Time is money and by using modern technology in an old format I saved both time and money (and never had to lean over a hot engine readjusting anything).
Steptoe wrote:but do have to mess around wiring up , getting it to run right and reliable
3 wires, no messing around. 1 goes to ignition power, the other goes to ground, the third is a tach output on some but not on others. Set the base timing to manufacturers specs and your ready to tune. Modern units are just as reliable as old technology and they are built with new parts so there is no "refurbishing" required.

I know you don't believe me but there are advantages to using modern equipment. You have your way, I have mine.
Fuel flow requirements calculations
Engine air flow requirement calculation: CFM = Cubic Inches x RPM x Volumetric Efficiency (VE) ÷ 3456

andrewmx83
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 11:18 am

Re: programmable ignition

Post by andrewmx83 »

To go one step further, it's 2014, why the hell would you muck around with distribtors at all? Blank it off or use it for a cam/crank reference and run wasted spark or COP.
ESPECIALLY with lpg which needs a good spark.... i would go as far as to say ditching the dizzy and going to programmable waste spark would be one of the best things you could do to an lpg car.

Steptoe
Posts: 1504
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:32 pm
Location: JAFA , New Zealand

Re: programmable ignition

Post by Steptoe »

Far comment Storm.. it seems a lot ppl are having issues....
Even so.. with a bit of experience under ones belt, dialing in old school carbs/ dizzies doesnt take much.
If one has injection ECU monitoring thats a total different kettle of fish....
Andrew...
And not all of us like going to electronics.. other than dialing in....personally my vehicles range from 1912 technology/ engines.. vintage/classics.....I work with bloody computers all day... builders dont go home and build to relax, electricians dont go home and electrocute .. they play with hot rods or go fishing.
And once the car is dialed in.. thats it.. change oil, grease check tuning specs... for the next 20+ yrs

If doing this stuff for a living in a workshop , or have a interest in the technology rather than the results... cool..
My Spelling is Not Incorrect...It's 'Creative'

storm
Posts: 796
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:10 pm
Location: NSW, Australia

Re: programmable ignition

Post by storm »

Steptoe wrote:Far comment Storm.. it seems a lot ppl are having issues....
Even so.. with a bit of experience under ones belt, dialing in old school carbs/ dizzies doesnt take much.
It takes more than you are suggesting though and a new programmable distributor is quicker and easier.
Steptoe wrote:If one has injection ECU monitoring thats a total different kettle of fish....
This thread isn't about using an ECU it is about using an addon to program ignition, an addon that dosn't seem to be working and is also costing time and money.
I know this next part was to a different member but it requires discussion.
Steptoe wrote:And not all of us like going to electronics.. other than dialing in...
That is fair enough but not everyone has time or money to waste, or the skill to dialing in a distributor.
Steptoe wrote:personally my vehicles range from 1912 technology/ engines.. vintage/classics.....
I'd love to see them.
Steptoe wrote:I work with bloody computers all day... builders dont go home and build to relax, electricians dont go home and electrocute .. they play with hot rods or go fishing.
Your job is beside the point, your personal preference is what is being discussed.
Steptoe wrote:And once the car is dialed in.. thats it.. change oil, grease check tuning specs... for the next 20+ yrs
And youthink its different with a programmabale distributor?
Steptoe wrote:If doing this stuff for a living in a workshop , or have a interest in the technology rather than the results... cool..
Think about the last part of that comment and tell me honestly that it isn't slightly insulting to professionals.
I have an interest in technology but first and formost my interest is in getting the job done properly. I will use what I can to obtain the best, long term, result for the peson I do the work for.
Fuel flow requirements calculations
Engine air flow requirement calculation: CFM = Cubic Inches x RPM x Volumetric Efficiency (VE) ÷ 3456

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