Mileage - Summer/Winter

Propane, Butane, LPG, GPL, C3H8, C4H10
bumpstart
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: Mileage - Summer/Winter

Post by bumpstart »

Australia's P/B ratio is pretty static all year round because the country doesn't have the huge temp variations that other locations on this fine planet do. Sure we get from, for example, -10C to +45c but not all over the country and we certainly don't get the -40s to +50s other countries do. Kinda makes me glad I'm where I am cause I know I couldn't survive something like a Siberian winter.

and where i am ,, Perth .. oz .. ..just had a long spell at 38-44 C
.. and it has its own issues whereby running maxed cooling systems at 95 C +... for some in depth reason... may concentrate end heavies from the fuel in the convertor

a whole new topic i expect !!


the law in aus actually allows for considerable margin in the ratios and a lowly minimal octane standard
the economics and logistics of supply markets ensure high quality west australian gas shelf condensate is shared only to west australians.. but due to the width in the standard is watered down with butane waste from the petro refinery in kwinana .. and sold at full saudi price.. even though its a waste stream oversupplied into a tiny market
usually the quality is higher than the rest of the country.. in small servos with limited acess for a large truck,, they still get straight propane from the truck that fills the camping store vessels


the eastern seaboard gets LPG imported from singapore,, sourced from many places and has considerable butane content .. due to the nature of how its sourced then the ratio is subject to seasonal variations
.. its quality is generally lower than western australia ( higher butane ratio )

the propane has a lower fuel density.. higher ratios of propane will not get as far,, litre per litre.. to those with higher butane content
butane tends to lower the octane.. propane pushes it up
butane tends to have issues below certain ambient temps with cold start vapourisation .. hence seasonal variation in some markets that are not torrid climate
when the going is hard, don't retard, remember your lubrication

BigBlockMopar
Posts: 394
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Location: Netherlands
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Re: Mileage - Summer/Winter

Post by BigBlockMopar »

kikkegek wrote:I'd like that too...I still have the idle that enrichens from 18-20 to 14-15 from cold morning start to operation temperature...no clue what is causing it.

I guess I could put one or two rings under the spring in the top of the mixer to put more tension on the spring so the AFR changes

During my current cold starts in the morning (near freezingtemps) the AFRs are around 14-15 and gradually lean out in about 5-10 minutes when engine heat starts to warm up the fuelsystem.
Not sure if this is 'normaI', but I think the altered convertor and mixer springs in my system could have something to do with that aswell.
(As a reminder, I've still got an extra smaller spring placed inside the convertor's stock leverspring, and I exchanged the 300A mixerspring with a slightly weaker one.)
https://www.bigblockmopar.com
'73 Dodge Dart - 360ci - 11.3:1cr
MegaSquirt + HEI 7-pin timing control - Edelbrock AirGap - Cold Air Intake
IMPCO E / 425 mixer - A518 OD-trans - 3.55 gears - 225/50/17" tires.

kikkegek
Posts: 416
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:12 pm
Location: Netherlands, The Hague

Re: Mileage - Summer/Winter

Post by kikkegek »

BigBlockMopar wrote:
kikkegek wrote:I'd like that too...I still have the idle that enrichens from 18-20 to 14-15 from cold morning start to operation temperature...no clue what is causing it.

I guess I could put one or two rings under the spring in the top of the mixer to put more tension on the spring so the AFR changes

During my current cold starts in the morning (near freezingtemps) the AFRs are around 14-15 and gradually lean out in about 5-10 minutes when engine heat starts to warm up the fuelsystem.
Not sure if this is 'normaI', but I think the altered convertor and mixer springs in my system could have something to do with that aswell.
(As a reminder, I've still got an extra smaller spring placed inside the convertor's stock leverspring, and I exchanged the 300A mixerspring with a slightly weaker one.)
hmmm, also strange. Normally hot air causes richers mixtures, because its less dense and thus holds less O2. So mixtures should richen a little...but on the other hand propane is also less dense and maybe it expands more then air, thus causing a leaner mixtures.

from what I can find the volumetric expansion coefficient or propane is 1,13/K (@ 0C) and of regular air at 0C it is 0,00366 . that eboing said, proipane expands 300 times faster then air. If this is correct then I now understand why propane benefits from cold air intakes and closing of the exhaust crossover in the intake manifold
storage/project: 1974 GMC 25HUNDRED Suburban - fresh rebuild 350 small block - TH350-NP203 - 4.10 gears - IMPCO425 mixer
driver/project: 1977 GMC C15 Suburban - 454 big block - 4L80E- LPG VSI - 3.08 gears
sold: 1986 Chevrolet Suburban K20 Silverado

BigBlockMopar
Posts: 394
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:29 pm
Location: Netherlands
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Re: Mileage - Summer/Winter

Post by BigBlockMopar »

I have a somewhat cold air intake in the car. The airfilterhousing is extended with flexible hose which ends right in front of a hole in the radiatorsupport.

With the warmer temps now the last 2 days I can really feel the difference in engine-performance (torque) during startups. I feels like the engine is already is warm as it has more torque during acceleration from a stop.

I wish my engine had 2 points more of compression in it so it would be more efficient with propane. If it weren't for the Hemi-engine project I would have removed the heads and replaced for a set with more compression just to see how that would improve engine performance and mileage.
https://www.bigblockmopar.com
'73 Dodge Dart - 360ci - 11.3:1cr
MegaSquirt + HEI 7-pin timing control - Edelbrock AirGap - Cold Air Intake
IMPCO E / 425 mixer - A518 OD-trans - 3.55 gears - 225/50/17" tires.

storm
Posts: 796
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:10 pm
Location: NSW, Australia

Re: Mileage - Summer/Winter

Post by storm »

bumpstart wrote:the eastern seaboard gets LPG imported from singapore,, sourced from many places and has considerable butane content .. due to the nature of how its sourced then the ratio is subject to seasonal variations
.. its quality is generally lower than western australia ( higher butane ratio )
Australia's prices are linked to Singapore, due to some stupid international agreement signed by the Hawke-Keating government, but not our sources. Our sources are Australian and we use nearly half and export the other half, maninly to China for 4c/litre (thanks to some stupid agreement by the Howard government). Because our sources are Australian our LPG is pretty standard across the board.
Fuel flow requirements calculations
Engine air flow requirement calculation: CFM = Cubic Inches x RPM x Volumetric Efficiency (VE) ÷ 3456

BigBlockMopar
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Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:29 pm
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Re: Mileage - Summer/Winter

Post by BigBlockMopar »

For a while now I keeping track of my car's mileage through an App on my iPhone, called "Road Trip LE". And recently I noticed my mileage was getting a little worse. I have 6 tankfills entered into the App now.
During some colder months I was getting of mileage/usage of 1Liter per 5,85km. The last two tankfills, when temps have been a little warmer, I was getting resp. 1:5,75 and lastly 1:5,51.
A bit baffled why this happened, I decided to adjust the mixer a bit leaner, to which I immediatley felt a slight engine power-improvement on the next drive.


I remembered I had adjusted the mixture a tad richer last year, thinking 'running too lean' all the time was probably making the engine work harder and would hurt economy.
The richening of the mixer was probably a 'lucky' good compensation for the cold wintermonths, but now the temps are warmer again, the added fuel is not good again for mileage.
This is were computer controlled engine management would shine and compensate on the fly for these changing temps.

It makes me want to install the Megasquirt ECU even more in the car!
https://www.bigblockmopar.com
'73 Dodge Dart - 360ci - 11.3:1cr
MegaSquirt + HEI 7-pin timing control - Edelbrock AirGap - Cold Air Intake
IMPCO E / 425 mixer - A518 OD-trans - 3.55 gears - 225/50/17" tires.

BigBlockMopar
Posts: 394
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:29 pm
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Mileage - Summer/Winter

Post by BigBlockMopar »

Just filled up the tanks again and calculated the lastest mileage, it was almost upto 1 Liter per 6 kilometers, or 14MPG.

(The large dip in mileage at 18 mei 2013 was because I had the car on the dyno that time. That hurt overal mileage pretty bad.)


Image Image
https://www.bigblockmopar.com
'73 Dodge Dart - 360ci - 11.3:1cr
MegaSquirt + HEI 7-pin timing control - Edelbrock AirGap - Cold Air Intake
IMPCO E / 425 mixer - A518 OD-trans - 3.55 gears - 225/50/17" tires.

storm
Posts: 796
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:10 pm
Location: NSW, Australia

Re: Mileage - Summer/Winter

Post by storm »

Neat looking app there, what's it called and is it available for Android?
Fuel flow requirements calculations
Engine air flow requirement calculation: CFM = Cubic Inches x RPM x Volumetric Efficiency (VE) ÷ 3456

BigBlockMopar
Posts: 394
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:29 pm
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Mileage - Summer/Winter

Post by BigBlockMopar »

This is a free version for the iPhone called "Road Trip lite".
https://www.bigblockmopar.com
'73 Dodge Dart - 360ci - 11.3:1cr
MegaSquirt + HEI 7-pin timing control - Edelbrock AirGap - Cold Air Intake
IMPCO E / 425 mixer - A518 OD-trans - 3.55 gears - 225/50/17" tires.

storm
Posts: 796
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:10 pm
Location: NSW, Australia

Re: Mileage - Summer/Winter

Post by storm »

Thanks, I'll look for similar on Android.
Fuel flow requirements calculations
Engine air flow requirement calculation: CFM = Cubic Inches x RPM x Volumetric Efficiency (VE) ÷ 3456

Steptoe
Posts: 1504
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:32 pm
Location: JAFA , New Zealand

Re: Mileage - Summer/Winter

Post by Steptoe »

My garmin gps s have a similar function.
If u work that out to Cost per say 100miles
then how much petrol will that give.....and the equivient mpg (imp gal 4.54L per gal)
Iknow tax price structures differ beywewen countries...
In NZ the general acepted here is 1/3 saving....Im just under 1/2 overall.
My Spelling is Not Incorrect...It's 'Creative'

BigBlockMopar
Posts: 394
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:29 pm
Location: Netherlands
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Re: Mileage - Summer/Winter

Post by BigBlockMopar »

The fuelprice is listed in the right screen and it's around 11 eurocents per km.
That's just under 23 cents US$ per mile, if Google was correct... Google Calculator
https://www.bigblockmopar.com
'73 Dodge Dart - 360ci - 11.3:1cr
MegaSquirt + HEI 7-pin timing control - Edelbrock AirGap - Cold Air Intake
IMPCO E / 425 mixer - A518 OD-trans - 3.55 gears - 225/50/17" tires.

BigBlockMopar
Posts: 394
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:29 pm
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Mileage - Summer/Winter

Post by BigBlockMopar »

Managed to rack up some more fuel-consumption data over the last month.
I've added a weather-temperature chart inside the picture, just to show that economy goes up pretty much right along with the outdoor temps. But, in the cold months I used to go a little less to my garage, which is a 10 minute drive on the highway. This has an impact on economy aswell I've noticed.


Image Image
https://www.bigblockmopar.com
'73 Dodge Dart - 360ci - 11.3:1cr
MegaSquirt + HEI 7-pin timing control - Edelbrock AirGap - Cold Air Intake
IMPCO E / 425 mixer - A518 OD-trans - 3.55 gears - 225/50/17" tires.

BigBlockMopar
Posts: 394
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:29 pm
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Mileage - Summer/Winter

Post by BigBlockMopar »

Recently I decided to try a little recurve of the distributor to see if any gains could be found again.
Last time was exactly a year ago when I did that.
This time I also took the time (and trouble) to measure and draw the actual advance curve.
The timing light already had shown something 'funny' happening at low rpms, to which I also decided to open up the distributor and have a look inside.

What I had found was that my ignition retards 3 degrees just above idle speeds, and only starts to advance again from 1250 orso.
All the mechanical parts in the ignition proved to be fine and free of play, so this problem must reside in the engine. Probably a worn timingchain, or a camshaft that moves slightly when the rpms go up.

I think if I could stabilize the ignition advance/timing at around off-idle to 1250rpm, it would produce some better economy and torque perhaps.
Although not the perfect solution, I'm thinking of rigging up a crank-triggered ignition as a cheap and quick workaround.

Below is a simple image of the curve I had found in the ignition;

Image
https://www.bigblockmopar.com
'73 Dodge Dart - 360ci - 11.3:1cr
MegaSquirt + HEI 7-pin timing control - Edelbrock AirGap - Cold Air Intake
IMPCO E / 425 mixer - A518 OD-trans - 3.55 gears - 225/50/17" tires.

kikkegek
Posts: 416
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:12 pm
Location: Netherlands, The Hague

Re: Mileage - Summer/Winter

Post by kikkegek »

good Stuff Herman! looking forward to more of it.
storage/project: 1974 GMC 25HUNDRED Suburban - fresh rebuild 350 small block - TH350-NP203 - 4.10 gears - IMPCO425 mixer
driver/project: 1977 GMC C15 Suburban - 454 big block - 4L80E- LPG VSI - 3.08 gears
sold: 1986 Chevrolet Suburban K20 Silverado

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