Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

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geraldm
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:53 pm
Location: Pump handle Saskatchewan

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by geraldm » Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:10 pm

http://youtu.be/ksjDydDvDos video as promised in last posts , probably means nothing .
Now how the hell did that happen ?


bumpstart
Posts: 131
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by bumpstart » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:50 pm

of the two ports on the TB ( holley baseplate ) , one is vacuum.,. other is port air ( vac advance )
you test which is which by blowing down them and operating the throttle
( the vacuum one is under the throttle plate and will be more audible open ,, the port air will have no flow ( or blow just above throttle plate ) , then lots as you open the throttle
( a PURGE air port is provided on many other TBs , and it routes from above the closed throttle plates .. this would normally be used to feed the tops on your oil injectors )
[ in your situ .. instead find the old 13b rats nest and steal the little filter caps from the three way solenoids and put them directly on top of the oil injection nipples ]

the port provided on the 200 inlet is for hooking to the top of the model E at the brass screen

we need somewhere for the SV/PV to route, between air gas valve and the TB
on a 225 , several ports, blinded with blind screws, are avail on the corners of the cast main body of the mixer .. one is used for any feedback control system ( hence FB mixer designation ) , another is for the SV routing

if your 200 is lacking these ,, then you need to drill a PURGE air port position either into the 200 body ( after the gas air valve,, above the TB ) or into the holley baseplate
( suggest other side to the ports already tapped, drill above the TB blades )

to this ,, route the SV/power valve
when the going is hard, don't retard, remember your lubrication

C3H8
Posts: 994
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:23 pm
Location: Winnipeg, Canada

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by C3H8 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:30 am

Bumpstart: I sent Gerald a PDF picture of the 200 mixer and the location he should drill and tap. Unfortunately the 200 does not include any drilled ports in the side of the mixer like the 225 does. I am not sure of exactly why that is. It does have the balance port though and the pdf file included a pic of this. I couldn't figure out how to attach a pdf file to a post so I just sent it to his direct email.

geraldm
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:53 pm
Location: Pump handle Saskatchewan

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by geraldm » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:35 am

thank-you for that Randy , as I mentioned in the mail that I always thought the SV needed to be under the throttle plates . that is why the confusion ..

Now one more question for both of you .. Will I need to do more work on the mixer as far as mods go besides the fitting in the inlet that we have discussed ..?? the reason I ask is the more times I need to remove mixer the more chance for a vac leak .

Coils mounted , ignition modules mounted , Oil cooler mounted . Waiting for Cp-30 , Oil hoses ready , Need to build a small dash cluster over top of the oil cooler .,,

Seeing as there are quite a few bends and twists involved with the radiator hoses I was thinking of the stainless flexible hose .. Has anyone used this stuff and to what success ??
Now how the hell did that happen ?

C3H8
Posts: 994
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:23 pm
Location: Winnipeg, Canada

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by C3H8 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:32 pm

That should be the only modification you need to do the mixer.

SS hoses. I've seen them used but have not had any feedback or personal experience on their use.

bumpstart
Posts: 131
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by bumpstart » Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:57 am

hmm not a fan of shielded hoses ( cant see the rubber to judge its condition ) and thinks the lobster coil ss type hoses may be tricky and expensive
for mine i have conventional heater hoses but use external slip over form a bend type coils ( EZ coil ) to keep them from pinching off on corners
when the going is hard, don't retard, remember your lubrication

geraldm
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:53 pm
Location: Pump handle Saskatchewan

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by geraldm » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:17 pm

the stuff I looking at has no hose inside it is just a ribbed stainless tube , then the ends go over top and seal like an ordinary hose but it is a tad on the pricey side 44 inch will run around 55 bucks with shipping but comes with enough ends and clamps to make two hoses . I see summit have it in their catalog but it is 80 bucks there . the more I look at it the more I no want .
Now how the hell did that happen ?

bumpstart
Posts: 131
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by bumpstart » Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:29 am

the EZ bends work and rubber hoses are cheap and not effected by vibrations or electrolysis

if you have the mixer off ,, and is feeling creative.. take a cardboard template of the lid flange pattern as basis for a fabbed flange lid cover ( over the top of everything )
( only required for later , when you take the boost higher , for your safety if you lean over the engine )
when the going is hard, don't retard, remember your lubrication

bumpstart
Posts: 131
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by bumpstart » Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:41 am

and PS.. while mixer is off you should tap 3 or 4 small threads around the lip of the entry , so that 3 ( or 4 ) small phillips head screws will act as nubs for the hose clamp to assist holding the silicone hose from the turbo delivery pipe when under boost
( or you could weld nubs, but the tap and screw head works just fine )

about 5 mm in from lip should be OK , leave room behind it for the jubilee clamp
when the going is hard, don't retard, remember your lubrication

bumpstart
Posts: 131
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by bumpstart » Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:54 am

also curious if you still have the original exhaust pressure driven auxiliary ( 5/6 ) port actuators on you lower inlet manifold ?

if you do.. then route each one to those nipples on the inlet manifold you highlighted recently..

the aux ports will now swing open at 2 psi boost,, and shut when you close throttle

thats a nice piece of cake i was denied with my previous setup
( essentially the mazda rotary equiv of vtec )
when the going is hard, don't retard, remember your lubrication

geraldm
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:53 pm
Location: Pump handle Saskatchewan

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by geraldm » Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:06 am

Holes for fittings are drilled and tapped and back on machine but I can set up the vacuum to suck any material from drilling around air inlet not a problem . I made a extra hole in between the ribs on the mixer and tapped it for future use if need be so we have one for the SV and a spare .

Yes I have all parts from the port actuators even the pipe going from one side to the other is still on , for re installation . that could be done easy enough , the only concern is to find room for the headers , I remember having a bit of a pita building the first set of headers when the actuators were still on but a very good idea and will find a way to get around them , just more close fitting is all . ( my original idea from a couple years back was to run a tiny lumbar support compressor from a GM car seat but that is again even if tiny another part hanging there and took 1.5 seconds to open full so half my run would be over before things kicked in . ) good idea and me will find a way . :wink:

My goal for keeping the Dragon all easy and simple is kinda floating out the window , I think it will be like newer cars , to make them compact things need to be close in , and removing several pieces to do maintenance or repairs will become common place , but there is no way around it .
Now how the hell did that happen ?

geraldm
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:53 pm
Location: Pump handle Saskatchewan

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by geraldm » Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:03 pm

IMG-20140223-00477.jpg
IMG-20140223-00476.jpg
[attachment=2]IMG-20140223-00475.jpg[/attachment

I apologize for the side ways pics , it's the only way I could get them to upload . As you can see in the pics the room is very limited in the actuator area . Maybe if I used a couple very short pipes coming off the little engine and then go to a rectangle to get through the small space , then mount the turbo to the rectangle part then the wastegate and so on after , Me thinks it needs to go out the right hand side , maybe making the bike a tad off balance but I can mount the old fuel tanks back on and use the left hand tank for ballast to help even things out . I guess could go to 1.5 inch pipe off engine instead of 2 inch that would give me an extra 1/2 inch to work with // or build a horizontal pipe box right at the engine with bolt on flanges and then run one big bugger to the turbo .. Moving the jack shaft is NOT an option as it effects belt length and how it pulls down on the engine to create a down force on the front wheel and also keeps down pressure on the engine mounting system under full load .

Anyone have any thoughts >??
Attachments
IMG-20140223-00475.jpg
Now how the hell did that happen ?

bumpstart
Posts: 131
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by bumpstart » Sun Feb 23, 2014 8:56 pm

while it seems like a complicated mass of hoses atm.. when you sit down and view it all in schematic you will see it is a very simple.. all analog / pneumatic control system , turbo and the mixer .. so after initial setup .. things will just work, using principals of physics ,, without added electronic complication

the most complicated circuit here is the dual use nature of the SV/ powervalve
and the most complicated modification is tapping the mixer for a delivery point for the SV ,, and for some nubs along the inlet to stop the hose slipping off when you turn up the boost

the cage around the lid ( or over the lid ) on the mixer is just for safety factor if there is an induced backfire
( too much boost finding limits of the ignition spark may cause a backfire,, i have run identical ignition to 20 psi already ,, the 225 is inherently weak in this equiv area , though 200 is a much better design )

turbo wise .. it will sit where it fits.. it is not super critical to get it right up against the motor , and you dont have a chassis rail or a steering box or rack that side to get around like most oz rx7 owners
the turbo can be seated on a dumb collector manifold , or you can have tube type manifolds . and even siamesed entry ( twin scroll entry ) depending on the turbine housing selection

note the twin scroll stuff radically complicates the wastegate selection , setup and positioning , and the small gains down low from this are probs not worthy of the added complication

im thinking that you may need 1.75 inch pipes ( thickwall is fully necessary ) and bring the turbo forwards adjacent the front rotor ( to clear your drive system and miss the inlet actuators )
with both pipes from engine directionally favouring a wastegate around 50 + mm
( bring them together into a 2.5-3 inch tube with the gate on the end and the turbo sitting on top )
when the going is hard, don't retard, remember your lubrication

geraldm
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:53 pm
Location: Pump handle Saskatchewan

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by geraldm » Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:37 pm

I'm a pretty lucky old dude , I bet I'm the only guy on any of these forums that has a babysitter , a big feather in your hat Bumpstart and a little good karma can't hurt right . Don't get me wrong I not meaning complicated parts I simply mean that things are tight and will be a bit of a pita to work on some areas of the bike . the electrics of the bike are very basic even the double acting SV is a simple job besides I know an electrician that is very skillfull at doing a very clean and neat job of laying out electrical and diagrams , He calls it communication wiring .

I remember 2 years back I thought things were starting to become close in but maybe I have changed my methods a bit also ,like placing things closer together and in more compact areas , besides a few brass fittings and hose , electrical and of course finish the fuel vessels and valves , I feel I have used reasonably safe methods when it comes to the fuel end of things but will not get into it because I don't want others copying that part of the build in any way ,I;m sure to the relief of many of the members of this forum ,, Right Randy .

( I decided to use the coolant pipes That were on it and just use longer hose ends to fit to the further ahead Radiator and maybe a hanger or two ,, I feel that the air bleeder in the top pipe is very necessary to keep the air out from the part going over the alternator then use the little pump in my coolant catch ( windshield washer tank from a 7 to fill through the overflow hose ) before fire up ,, I found last year it would pretty much fill it's self during engine cool once it was full and burped but did use the little pump a bit just to bleed a few bubbles out .

Yea I will drill and tap a few holes around the inlet to keep things together , On a side note for anyone building coolant pipes make sure you do build a ring or two around the ends of the pipe with the mig before installing or for sure and I don't care how tight you make the clamps , the hose will blow of at normal radiator pressures .. ,, so for sure I see no reason that the air inlet with say 13 pounds boost would do any different . A good point Bumpstart .. Actually drilling and tapping the mixer for the extra ports was very simple and I was pleased to see how thick the walls of the Impco 200 mixer were ,, I'm guessing a good 3/8 inch at least at that point , so goes to show what you said about the 200 being a nice robust unit , might add so far I am liking the whole system and I believe the Dragon will be a real beast to deal with . wish it was possible for you to try him out , even just sitting on him running makes your hair stand up .

For a guard on the mixer I will come up with something for that , it won't take much to do the job but yea the top of that puppy would sting a bit if it ever sploded and wacked me . I figure if I ever make it to the drag strip they will make me put a blanket on the whole engine and clutch area buggers will probably make me wear a helmet and finger mitts to
Now how the hell did that happen ?

C3H8
Posts: 994
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:23 pm
Location: Winnipeg, Canada

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by C3H8 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:05 pm

:D :D Safety has to rate high. I sure wouldn't want anyone to get hurt or even die because of something read or seen on the forum(s). Your project is really unique and the videos of the progress are very interesting. Who knows, someday I may be in your area and call you to have a look at the bike. I have always been fascinated with the rotary engines. A few years ago I purchased an rx3 but I just didn't have the time or resources to work on it so I sold it when I moved away from Alberta. Hope to see your project one day.

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