Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

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geraldm
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:53 pm
Location: Pump handle Saskatchewan

Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by geraldm » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:52 am

Hi everyone welcome to my propane conversion on my motorcycle for grass drags . I'm just getting parts together for now , new cooling rad ,After an incredibly drawn out and frustrating parts search all over the world for IMPCO brand propane parts . Some parts were so called lightly used , some used , lots of new stuff but after checking things out found that people either can't supply what they say they can or are dealing in throw off products that look exactly like Impco which they usually call impco style parts at pretty much the same prices as the real impco brand but the biggest part of the time the shipping costs are way high , some are as high as 60-70 dollars each piece . Finally I was directed to PRO QUIP SALES INC. out of Calgary Alberta . 1-866-692-8132 . In a matter of maybe 10 minutes phone time one call back from Calgary in short order with a reasonable price and reasonable shipping costs . and done deal , parts should be here in about a week or maybe a tad longer considering the season . I won't discuss prices on any of my propane build parts if anyone is interested call them and find out . I will also post results of shipping time and good or poor packaging of which I feel confident that everything will go fine .

As far as the bike it,s self goes it is totally built of my own design , this is pretty much what has been put into the bike so far... Front end is built to a 50 DEG. rake and is a stock 82 honda saber with the big V Rod solid wheel with the 90x100 light knobby tire , no front brakes on this puppy IMO they are far to dangerous on grass and dirt ,,, Frame is self built I honestly can't remember what number the 1 inch pipe is , totally a under slung frame leaving the upper engine wide open for ease of access to components .,,, Engine is from a 86 Mazda RX7 , 13b 6 port was EFI injected with electronic ignition now single fire direct fire ignition made from two 4 prong HEI modules from 70.s GM cars , stock Mazda Trailing coils producing enough power to actually make your legs give out ( ask me how I know ) :wink: ,,,.. The little engine is totally rebuilt with heavy apex seals for the extra turbo pressures . ( Now that mod was hinted to me by Bumpstart over a year before turbo was discussed the man seems to have the ability to know what I'm thinking long before anything is said ) ,,,. it supports a highly modified Holley 500 carb with manual adjusting high speed jet ..., with 50cc squirters ,... primary and secondary drives are as follows , Polaris primary clutch , Team secondary clutch with twin helix .using a MAX 1065M3 drive belt , the secondary clutch is on a jack shaft running to the right hand side from there it has a 13 tooth primary sprocket with a 47 tooth final drive sprocket on the rear wheel creating around a 3.3 to 1 ratio on the rear to the ground , the primary and secondary belt pulleys have approx 3to 1 ratio to the rear 100x120 kenda Milville sticky tire ..so when you put it together with a 7000 to 8000 RPM range things get pretty wild real quick . ,,,. Oil pressure relief mod was also suggested to me by BUMPSTART , it creates 30 LBS at hot idle and 90 PSI at 3500 RPM to wot . see IMO he was setting me up for the turbo build which require ample oil cooling on the engine rotors more than a year ago ...,,

I will be making lots of updates on the project and update into next summer so watchers can see how things turn out in action .

I do encourage people and would like to invite comments and suggestions please do I will reply promptly and be happy to discuss any input that anyone might have .... Thanks for your time much appreciated .http://youtu.be/mxsWTC4jFyI
Last edited by geraldm on Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Now how the hell did that happen ?


bumpstart
Posts: 132
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by bumpstart » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:14 am

wow.. dont think there is that much detail on the bike even on the mazda forum

good to see you found someone good,, very local ,.,as for the knockoff impco stuff,, some of it is OK ..

one brand called L.P gas make a version of 225 that has a changes that make it inherently stronger under boost and has method to shim the air /gas valve assembly outwards,, richer
-only complaint is the lack of markings on gas valve assemblies-

and the repair kits interchange so you can essentially deck them out with impco quality internals as required

but, youve sourced the authentic stuff ,, and should find it all relatively easy and straight forward from here
,, just mounting the tank and the fittings now and a few supply hard pipes to fit up and it should fall into place and prove simple to adjust
when the going is hard, don't retard, remember your lubrication

bumpstart
Posts: 132
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by bumpstart » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:19 am

PS,, safety first,, please do the initial pressure ups not in an enclosed space
( i know its cold where you are but its not a clever idea to do leak tests under the house )

keep us up to date with whats going on and we can lead you through the plumbing and the safety interlock wire-ups
when the going is hard, don't retard, remember your lubrication

geraldm
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:53 pm
Location: Pump handle Saskatchewan

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by geraldm » Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:24 pm

bumpstart wrote:PS,, safety first,, please do the initial pressure ups not in an enclosed space
( i know its cold where you are but its not a clever idea to do leak tests under the house )

keep us up to date with whats going on and we can lead you through the plumbing and the safety interlock wire-ups


No worries Things will be done in a safe as possible way . All ordered parts came in today from Calgary . total for shipping $15.65 Can. through the mail ,took less than a full week and the packaging is adequate to protect the contents . Anyone that would have a problem with any of the purchase or shipping would be someone who would never be satisfied no matter what . IMO the whole deal was very good and I would recommend to anyone . I asked Trevor at the order desk to include anything he thought I might need so he put a bit of a kit together and it looks to me that I have every thing needed fittings and all ,Also about 3 ft. of vapor hose , Filter , and lock off valve , not sure about the cold start solenoid but even if it helps the little engine kick off fast for first start of the day for sure I will incorporate it in the system , either way I will be keeping it . I will get some pics uploaded as soon as I have a decent connection . Pictures are very deceiving . the reg and mixer look much smaller in the pictures on most sites than they really are . That E reg is a big bugger larger than I expected but I think I can make room . Also the mixer is a nice height 3 1/8 inlet looks like it could be mounted in any direction ,Me thinks close to the same height as the Holley 500 . I will update maybe with a short little video .. I feel quite confident between your self and C3H8 everything will go smooth . thanks Gerald
Now how the hell did that happen ?

geraldm
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:53 pm
Location: Pump handle Saskatchewan

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by geraldm » Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:56 am

A very short video containing all parts ordered for conversion ,http://youtu.be/N4SZUsdAur0

My tapered reamers and interrupted taps will be here in a short time also . I like to make tapered threads in a tapered hole so the entire thread is sealed and not just the last 1/2 of the of the fitting if that makes sense , if not it is probably just as well .
Now how the hell did that happen ?

bumpstart
Posts: 132
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by bumpstart » Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:31 am

looks very good,, wish i could find those shipping prices ! .. the start assist solenoid is a bonus and will certainly help both in the cold,, and in the method we use when setting up the tune

usually ( on a simple setup ) you would run fused power via a thumb switch through the solenoid to earth
to allow some of the mixture to bypass the carb to the throttle plate and richen the mixture when starting,, very necessary when temps start to drop below 10 degrees centigrade

however it can be used also as a form of on power enrichment , its rate fixed by a line pill restriction , if you wire it up instead with a relay so there is a twin switching method
( suggest for power enrichment duty then you could use a pressure switch or a throttle switch for wide open throttle )

i use similar method on mine ( using a H.P solenoid on the L.P location and switching it via relay with my ecu ) for power enrichment
and this in turn allows the mixer itself to be set more midrange in mixture delivery , aiming for a bit more fidelity in mixtures at and just off idle

note.. it is only really necessary on large engines with big throttle plates as the mixer itself may be a little slow to respond

note.. when you tune this the propane will act in reverse to wet petrols where as with LPG a little over -rich will cost power and now add heat to the exhaust
when the going is hard, don't retard, remember your lubrication

geraldm
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:53 pm
Location: Pump handle Saskatchewan

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by geraldm » Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:40 am

PM sent
Now how the hell did that happen ?

geraldm
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:53 pm
Location: Pump handle Saskatchewan

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by geraldm » Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:03 am

Just a short video update on the propane components mounting http://youtu.be/D7ss02HOGvQ
Now how the hell did that happen ?

C3H8
Posts: 1000
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:23 pm
Location: Winnipeg, Canada

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by C3H8 » Mon Dec 23, 2013 2:16 am

Hey Gerald. The installation looks really nice. Just a suggestion but the lock off could be mounted anywhere in the system considering the short run to your planned location of the tank. It could be mounted directly to the convertor or you could use the electric type of service valve that goes directly into the tank opening. That way you would only need a single hose from the tank to the lock off or the lock off to the regulator. If you mount it directly to the regulator I would add a support bracket to the lock off for safety.

geraldm
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:53 pm
Location: Pump handle Saskatchewan

MERRY CHRISTMAS

Post by geraldm » Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:35 pm

C3H8 wrote:Hey Gerald. It could be mounted directly to the convertor or you could use the electric type of service valve that goes directly into the tank opening.



MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE
HOPE YOU ALL HAVE A HEALTHY YEAR !!!

Hi Randy I'm not sure I know what you mean by electric type of service valve that goes directly into the the tank opening .. I don't think I have ever came across anything like that , can you explain what you mean by that .. and what would be needed to do this idea .

I did mock up the solenoid and the filter at the reg ,, filter in reg and solenoid in filter just to try to save space since I have a lot of parts to refit I need all the inches I can get, oil cooler both coils need to be mounted , my direct fire set up . but yes I did mount in a nice spot for a bracket very out of the way ,, but if I can come out of the reg with a ninety put the filter on that and have cut off connector on tank end . I think what ever tank I run will need to be upright so I can protect the valve properly . so me thinks I will need a valve with a dip tube to go to the bottom . Thanks for taking the time .....
Now how the hell did that happen ?

bumpstart
Posts: 132
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by bumpstart » Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:12 am

i think the point is that the electric lockoff valve itself ,, normally mounted to the inlet of the model E reg,, can instead be put at the tank end,, cause your liquid line is very short

in other installs on cars and trucks then the line length means much more fuel in it , so has the excess flow lockoff at the tank ( for line ruptures )
and the model E has its electric lockoff at the reg
( switched by a safety circuit control box looking for ignition pulse, with initial 5 second time-out period )
when the going is hard, don't retard, remember your lubrication

storm
Posts: 560
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:10 pm
Location: NSW, Australia

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by storm » Mon Dec 30, 2013 6:54 pm

I don't know about other jurisdictions but in Australia and New Zealand their must be a lock off on the tank and at the regulator. I realise this is a drag bike but safety is safety.
Every job is a self-portrait of the person who did it. Autograph your work with excellence.

Fuel flow requirements calculations viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1638

C3H8
Posts: 1000
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:23 pm
Location: Winnipeg, Canada

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by C3H8 » Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:18 pm

Here in Canada the regulations require an electric lock off in the opening of the fuel tank on all over the road vehicles. The purpose is strictly safety. In theory this would have relieved the necessity of a lock off under the hood. Some conversions are performed without the under hood lock off but most retain it. The lock off at the tank serves as a positive shut off whenever the key is off to prevent a tank from emptying if there is a leak upstream of the engine lock off. This lock off is controlled by the same features as the engine lock off. If the engine stalls the lock off shuts off. The engine lock off on some models, IE, IMPCO becomes redundant because a "properly" functioning vapourizer will stop the flow of propane if the engine stalls. IMPCO is not the only brand though. Some brands have positive pressure vapourizers and even if the lock off at the tank closed in a stall the liquid in the line would continue to flow until the line was empty without the second lock off. liquid expands 270 times. For this reason most installers choose to use two lock offs to make sure they not only meet the code but also insure safety.

The same rule does not apply to off road vehicles, race vehicles or drag vehicles but it is a good rule and applying it to off road vehicles is a safe practise. The only issue is fuel flow for specialty vehicles. The excess flow in these solenoids is set at 1.7 GPM. It is quite possible for some big blocks in specialty vehicles to require more then this. In those cases the manual valves with higher ratings are the only solution.

C3H8
Posts: 1000
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:23 pm
Location: Winnipeg, Canada

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by C3H8 » Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:25 pm

Question for Storm. Does the same rule apply to LPG injection? An injector controls the fuel flow and becomes a lock off as soon as the engine is shut off or stalls. I guess the LPG injection kit manufacturers have considered this as the wiring harness contains connections for both a tank lock off and a lock off under the hood. Depending on wording or direct instructions an injector would be considered a lock off. This one puzzled the Canadian enforcers for a long time and depending on the province a lock off on the injection systems was optional in some of them. The dealers were encouraged to use an additional lock off anyways.

geraldm
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:53 pm
Location: Pump handle Saskatchewan

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by geraldm » Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:41 am

Good info to know , and now I have a question in theory that bumpstart and myself have been pondering on . say I have a 5L. tank and am going to do liquid transfer from a 50 L tank ,, how full and how many times will I be able to fill my 5L. tank ?? will I be able to fill it to 80% ?? Now I have asked this of 5 different people and have gotten 5 different answers . to make things balanced lets just call temp and so on as average . Bumpstart called it a very curly question any takers :wink: the machine burned gasoline fuel at a rate of 1 gallon per mile if I was being nice I did get it weaned down a tad at the end of the summer . that is the reason for the question I need to know how many L. of LPG I need I may need two tanks to make a couple of 200 ft runs including warm up and so on . Guess I won't know until the day it hits the dirt again .
Now how the hell did that happen ?

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