Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

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bumpstart
Posts: 131
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by bumpstart » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:41 pm

my part in it has been small and the full props need to go to the builder and the pipe fabricator

still a way to go ..a heat shield over it all else it will give nasty burns climbing on and off
and a water injection system is also planned so that we can avoid the need for a boost retard dizzy or an ecu to control timing
hopefully you can use the water bottle position to rebalance the bike how you would like it


not much on this forum as regards to tuning LPG with water injection but i expect larger gains in the detonation safety margin than would be seen with petrol/ water

LPG brings better mixing and burn characteristics,, but does not bring boundary cooling as seen in petrol rotaries with 11:1 mixtures

the water will introduce boundary quenching and i expect that will allow us to run significantly more timing and leaner mixtures for more power than would have been the case without it
when the going is hard, don't retard, remember your lubrication


geraldm
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:53 pm
Location: Pump handle Saskatchewan

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by geraldm » Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:42 am

Yea I guess I could have done it without your help , it would have moved the finish date up a tad like say 2025 and by then I will have forgotten what I was doing .

Yea Will the pipe builder told me he would roll a piece of stainless sheet for the turbo and install so that also is covered .. to my surprise there is about 4 more inches clearance between my left knee and where the big pipe comes out now . he really has everything tucked in nice , the only thing that needs to be removed to take the entire header , turbo and waste gate set up off is the port actuators and they are very close at the bottom 1/ 8 or maybe a dit more but me thinks it is just the spring in the bottom of the actuator or am I backwards The jack shaft also only has less than 1/4 inch of clearance .


Water injection pre turbo I believe is what we schemed about earlier (( Man this is like getting married but can't touch your wife for the first year all you can do is look at it .)) I guess it's not a big deal to do . pump I guess is the main thing and a fine nozzle tip ,, Will that activate off my throttle switch OH DAM there goes another relay... . I could use my old fuel tanks they are metal and would need a coat of something inside as they were fire extinguishers and would rust immediately . but would work good and would hold over 2 gals of injection fluid . I don't think I need much ballast so they could be run together with the original lines and not use up any room //. Is 100 PSI enough to mist proper .? I guess the volume needed is just as important as the psi it produces .

Running out of time 2 months till D Day but WILL is getting lots of things done that won't need attention later .
Now how the hell did that happen ?

bumpstart
Posts: 131
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by bumpstart » Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:02 am

:arrow:
Last edited by bumpstart on Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
when the going is hard, don't retard, remember your lubrication

bumpstart
Posts: 131
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by bumpstart » Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:09 am

many ways to skin the cat with water injection .

my first tip is to have a M18x1.5 nut welded into the exhaust, at least 800 mm down from the dump flange, pref about at an angle 15 degrees off the vertical and inclined 10 degrees with the flow ( and find a bung for it )
( wideband use )
specialized ( uego sensor ) bush and bung can be found online ebay cheap

as for water injection there is potentially three methods
and that is before the argument comes for adding methanol.. which for this part we will ignore
( but keep in mind the purchase of a system that retains parts corrosion compatibility to potential methanol use )
the pre or post turbo injection point here will also be moot.. but keep in mind only those with a pump can inject post turbo
certainly you will be selecting a pre turbo method ,, with the finest droplet size and positive flow shut off the optimum criteria

the first and cheapest .. simplest method is a simple bottle ( non pressurised ) with a solenoid, a pump , a nozzle ( which you can swap for other sizes ) and a pressure activation switch

some variations may stage multiple nozzles to get some adjust-ability

these make the cheapest end of the market and lack some features and lack a lot of adjust-ability
basically you set the flow for WOT and get in as much as you can without killing power or putting out the ignition

better versions have features like low level switches and cut off solenoids near the nozzle




the next major variation is along the same lines ,, though an analog or digital ecu may be involved.. and they control the pump speed ,, and hence delivery pressure is controlled

some of these systems can be quite involved can build in features such as redundancy in case of flow or low level issues where they can command a signal and instruct any ignition ecu to retard timing


the third variation is much simpler than the rest

no pump is required
it involves a bottle that gets pressurized to boost pressure ,,a solenoid controlled by a pressure switch .. and a clever nozzle whereby low pressure air is further used to aid atomisation from the nozzle tip

as such the system has inbuilt self compensation for the flow as boost climbs

such systems are avail commercially ,, but if you search rx7club.. you will find a guy who can feed you the numbers for the special nozzles ..

add to it a HP LPG solenoid valve ( for shut off ) and some adaption to your fire extinguisher fuel tank
.. you already have it all in the bag

oh.. the wideband.. my current pref for carb tuners is to grab the PLX AFR2 / DM6 kit

this one will display in LPG AFR or directly as lambda ( or whatever ).. its handy feature for the carb guys is it can display as trend so you can get a squint at the AFR trends for the last burst you gave

( and still has a download or ecu out feature for those that require that )

the gauge is same 52mm size as the others in your dash .. but best of all .. if you use it to replace the temp gauge etc .. .
then you can add to it the PLX temp or pressure gauge sender .. and the single gauge can be used to display either on demand
( it is a touch screen .. you daisy chain up to 16? different instruments through one or as many gauges as you require )
when the going is hard, don't retard, remember your lubrication

geraldm
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:53 pm
Location: Pump handle Saskatchewan

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by geraldm » Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:02 am

Rosedale No. 283-20140623-00696 (450x600).jpg
Rosedale No. 283-20140623-00696 (450x600).jpg
Rosedale No. 283-20140623-00695 (450x600).jpg
I searched out a air - water nozzle with box for not a bad price 69.90 us. so thought I will but and just build around it , when it got down to shipping they wanted 106.00 from the us. to Canada for a piece that would fit in a box 1x2 inches . and this is a good size company that I won't mention because that's not what this is about .

so just ordered the over priced kit thinking I would sooner buy over priced parts than pay for over priced gouging for shipping . It will be a while before I can forgive myself but I have spent more on less . so for those that don't know the water or water methanol tank will be pressurized by the turbo boost pressure so what ever the turbo is producing that is what the tank has , for this part I will be using i/4 inch fittings and possibly 3/8 tube from the tank to the turbo neck , the tank the tank will deliver the water through the inline water filter to the special secret nozzle when ever the in line 12v solenoid is activated . what makes this special nozzle so special is it is also attached to an air supply in this case the turbo pressure and yes this nozzle will make a very fine mist from 3 to what ever pressure the turbo is set at and the best part as the turbo pressure rises the tank delivers more water to the nozzle as well as more air on the other side of the nozzle box . so we will see how that performs ..
Now how the hell did that happen ?

geraldm
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:53 pm
Location: Pump handle Saskatchewan

Water methanol injection with no charge pump

Post by geraldm » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:20 pm

IMG_0013.JPG
IMG_0008.JPG
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Water Injection Kit finally came in , didn't take to long just seems like it when one is waiting . looks like everything is there , just taking a bit of time to figure things out . setting up for around 5 pounds boost to start and will work our way up from there . Made three new holes in the cold side and tapped them to 1/8 npt.

This system has no pump it relies on boost pressure to atomize the water meth mixture ..One side of the nozzle assembly has filtered water supplied by one of the rear saddle tanks (( about 1.5 gals )) .. Boost pressure is used to pressurize the water tank ,, the nozzle is also supplied with boost pressure and mixes the water and air inside the nozzle tip and exits with a very fine mist ,,much finer than some 150 pound pump systems do . The big plus with this system is there are no parts to wear out or give problems . (( Keep the water clean and there should be no problems )) The method requires a couple extra boost lines but no matter if not used can just be plugged off with a fitting ..

!! QUESTION !! I have tapped into the boost cold side of the turbo in three different places,, one on the intake side to hook to the crankcase to put just a very little bit of vacuum in the bottom end just to keep the vapors down and deal with and blow by that might take place on the side seals . then I can eliminate the vent hose to atmosphere for the 1/4 mile if I indeed do go that road . the other two are to operate the pressure switch that will in turn activate the water flow solenoid (( this solenoid shuts off when boost is below what ever I set the adjustable switch for to eliminate water droplets when not activated . the third further down into the turbo will pressurize the water tank .. Question is :: will the boost pressure be basically the same through the whole system from turbo the intake ?? reason I ask is I figure it is more important to make sure the water tank has the best opportunity to pressure up the fastest and would like to feed it from the best source . The pressure switch is not as critical as it requires less pressure to activate the flow solenoid (( what ever I set it at )) Or is it pretty much the same action from one end of system to the other .. hope this makes sense
IMG_0010.JPG
IMG_0012.JPG
Now how the hell did that happen ?

bumpstart
Posts: 131
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by bumpstart » Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:17 pm

very good

the pressure on the cold side discharge will be effectively the same at either of the two points
though a source taken after the pressure drop of the mixer or throttle will be slightly lesser

as discussed , best place for the pressure switch is engine side of the throttle plate, to prevent a pressure surge on closed throttle triggering the water to flow
when the going is hard, don't retard, remember your lubrication

geraldm
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:53 pm
Location: Pump handle Saskatchewan

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by geraldm » Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:47 am

The one and only Dragons' breath , mazda twin rotary powered , turbo charged propane powered . and topped off with a sip of water methanol , polaris sno-mo over running clutch belt driven to the final chain drive to the rear wheel supporting a 100- 120 kenda milville sticky hard ground moto cross tire ( the largest I can find available ) Monetary value is six and one half ice cream pails full of money , didn't count it my heart would never handle the shock ..
Been a long time coming , thanks for the help and support Randy , thanks to everyone for their ideas and suggestions . once I get him tuned we will upload a vid of the dragon in action , very impressed with the way the propane fired up , almost immediate what you see in the video is the first go . Enjoy
http://youtu.be/MJExyDKLClo
Now how the hell did that happen ?

geraldm
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:53 pm
Location: Pump handle Saskatchewan

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by geraldm » Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:53 am

this is the video that was taken some time ago from the Dinsmore Hutterite colony where the entire exhaust build took place by a guy name of Will very friendly bunch of people hard to get away without visiting and having some goodies that the women always appear with shortly after we arrive . some of this video there are to many people talking but good for a laugh and gives you a good idea of the capability of my Hutterite friend WILL ..http://youtu.be/OWWuC_0yBoE
Now how the hell did that happen ?

bumpstart
Posts: 131
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by bumpstart » Sun Aug 03, 2014 12:23 am

thinks you posted those links in the wrong order gerald.. and might have grabbed more attention in the propane subforum

very impressive for a first timer setup . creds to the builder/s and to impco for making it simple
when the going is hard, don't retard, remember your lubrication

geraldm
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:53 pm
Location: Pump handle Saskatchewan

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by geraldm » Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:16 am

Went to Young on Saturday and did some starts and just generally getting the feel of things . First thing found the wastegate was not opening causing full boost so didn't do any hard runs just some starts because I didn't want the little dude to splode , hes just not tuned for that yet but in general I am happy with the way things are coming together .. the perfect rotor housings , high compression rotors , 104 octane propane , water methanol injection , T04E divided turbo cold side 60ar hot side 1,15 ar , Classic apex seals , good seal on the rotor side seals , and a ton of other things are all finally coming together . the noise is the new loose chain touching the guard .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-Tz0lG ... detailpage
Now how the hell did that happen ?

storm
Posts: 534
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:10 pm
Location: NSW, Australia

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by storm » Tue Aug 12, 2014 1:57 am

Well done,
How long are your arms? Watching you on the bike stretched out to steer it made me feel very short.
Fuel flow requirements calculations viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1638

geraldm
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:53 pm
Location: Pump handle Saskatchewan

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by geraldm » Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:36 am

na I only 5ft 4 inch It's really not a big stretch , Maybe just the way I sit , see my lower back is fuzed together from being in so many accidents when I was younger and hard heavy work . so I kinda sit goofy and walk like a duck but I can still ride without using any serious medication so that is what I will do until I can't . Enjoy your life and what you do . How does the saying go ?? When I go I don't want to be presented in a well preserved body in a nice shinny coffin ,,No ,, I want to come sliding in sideways worn out tires engine steaming and say man what a hell of a ride this life has been .. :mrgreen: I will post some good runs after race day that is when everyone gets serious . just in case anyone from the saskatoon area we are having the 6 th annual Andersonville motorcycle rally and races on the weekend of the 23 of August 4 miles north of young Saskatchewan on hwy . no 2 thursday , friday , saturday and sunday . Just Google Andersonville North motorcycle rally and races should be able to find info there if not just PM me and I will for sure help you out . free entry , food is served day and night ,, BYOB .. Everyone is welcome Grandma and grandpa mom and dad and even the little dudes .
Now how the hell did that happen ?

bumpstart
Posts: 131
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by bumpstart » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:40 am

the perfect rotor housings , high compression rotors , 104 octane propane , water methanol injection , T04E divided turbo cold side 60ar hot side 1,15 ar
is this like fishing?? im sure last time i looked it was a 1.15 turbine housing to4b-25 !
( not far off from a to4e-57 but a bit more efficient in the sub 1 bar boost region )
when the going is hard, don't retard, remember your lubrication

geraldm
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:53 pm
Location: Pump handle Saskatchewan

Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by geraldm » Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:39 am

Yea your right boss ,,don't know why I said E Its BBBBBBB Serial # 0008 . Just seeing if you were paying attention ..
Now how the hell did that happen ?

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