Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

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storm
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Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by storm » Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:06 am

C3H8 wrote:Question for Storm. Does the same rule apply to LPG injection? An injector controls the fuel flow and becomes a lock off as soon as the engine is shut off or stalls. I guess the LPG injection kit manufacturers have considered this as the wiring harness contains connections for both a tank lock off and a lock off under the hood. Depending on wording or direct instructions an injector would be considered a lock off. This one puzzled the Canadian enforcers for a long time and depending on the province a lock off on the injection systems was optional in some of them. The dealers were encouraged to use an additional lock off anyways.
For vapour injection the lock offs are required. Because vapour injection still uses the majority of components required in a mixer conversion (apart from the mixer itelf that is) the lock off is still required on the tank and on the regulator. I know very little about Liquid injection so I cannot confidently answer that however my understanding is for Liquid phase the fuel pump itself is the lock off for the tank and as you mention the injectors are the lock off at the engine.
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Fuel flow requirements calculations viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1638


storm
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Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by storm » Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:10 am

Geraldm, tanks will "balance out" if you have a much larger tank the pressure will help to fill the much smaller tank to full (or 80%) many times over until the pressure inside both tanks evens out. When that happens no fuel will transfer.
geraldm wrote:to make things balanced lets just call temp and so on as average .
Average for where? Current average temp in mainland Australia is close to 40C (about 105F) I dare say average temp in Canada at any time of year is well below that.
Every job is a self-portrait of the person who did it. Autograph your work with excellence.

Fuel flow requirements calculations viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1638

C3H8
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Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by C3H8 » Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:48 am

It all comes down to patience and technique. If the 50 litre tank is higher then the 5 L tank pressure and gravity will do its thing. If the 5 L tank is empty pressure will start the process but the pressures will quickly equalize. It won't matter what the temperature is. Once the pressures have equalized the liquid will continue to transfer as long as the 50L tank is higher then the 5 L tank but the process will be slow because the vapour has to work its way through the liquid into the higher tank. If the 5L tank has a spit or bleed valve the process will be quicker. Opening the bleed valve on the 5L tank will make a minor difference in pressure however it will cool the tank as the propane vapourizes allowing the transfer to happen quicker but wasting fuel and depending on the vicinity it could be hazardous. Gravity filling was used for years on farms to transfer fuel to propane vehicles from bulk tanks but sometimes this took hours. The 5L tank should not take long. The farms sped the process up by having an elevated bulk tank and using two hoses. One hose transferred liquid from the bulk tank to the vapour space of the vehicle tank. The other went from the vapour space of the tank being filled to the vapour space of the bulk tank making sure the vapour could not be trapped in the vehicle tank. even though pressures were equal the liquid still ran easily into the lower tank.

The only danger you have is the 5L tank could easily be filled to 100%. You need to be monitoring it close to make sure you only put the recommended weight into the 5L tank. Unless the tank is removable you need to have a spit valve in the tank to check when it is full. The one good thing I expect is you are filling this just before a race. Even an overfilled tank should not cause any problem as long as nothing delays the start or you have a mechanical failure. In case of either you need a safe remote unoccupied location to blow off some of the fuel.

C3H8
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Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by C3H8 » Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:55 am

Storm wrote
For vapour injection the lock offs are required. Because vapour injection still uses the majority of components required in a mixer conversion (apart from the mixer itelf that is) the lock off is still required on the tank and on the regulator. I know very little about Liquid injection so I cannot confidently answer that however my understanding is for Liquid phase the fuel pump itself is the lock off for the tank and as you mention the injectors are the lock off at the engine.
c3h8
Your correct. Lock offs are the norm. They are also the norm on any of the LPI systems I've seen. They were usually on the outlet of the tank after the pump as most have internal pumps. A lock off was usually mounted at the engine also. Enough on this. Love the variation but we're getting a little off track from the original discussion of Gerald's bike..

geraldm
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Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by geraldm » Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:10 am

Anyway I really don't mind off topic discussions . unless the mods are down on it .. I'm new at propane so in my opinion any good knowledge weather it is directly related to my project or not . maybe if there is another guy that is trying to do something like this he will find the job a little easier to work with . so don't be afraid to pour it on .. If this forum is like most there are guys in the background that have a wealth of knowledge , some share some never do. So please the pro's the con's and everything between ..

There is no problem being confined , there is ton of open area heck they would set me up a fence if I ask them to . Attendance to ANDERSONVILLE Motorcycle Rally and races has over doubled since the Dragon appeared ,

It looks to me that I will need 2 tanks to have enough fuel to make 2 or 3 runs including warm up ( the bike don't move until the top of the thermo housing is touchy hot and of course now with LPG the reg will need to also heat up before I can expect it to preform at WOT. )

so here is another curly question ,, If I run two tanks coupled together with proper valves with vents ,, the lock off at the tanks T connector , can I buy a valve that can be used to fill and not be disconnected from the other twin bike tank with the 3/4 14 NPT thread .
Now how the hell did that happen ?

C3H8
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Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by C3H8 » Wed Jan 01, 2014 12:06 pm

Sure you can. Fill valves for tanks come in two styles. Direct fill and remote fill. Direct fill have 1 3/4" acme threads. remote fill have 1/2" flare. In your case you would install flares in both tanks and couple them to a single acme valve mounted in a bracket on the frame of the bike. Hoses would connect the acme to the flares.

Go here and look on page 15. Proquip carries all the stuff required. http://www.sherwoodvalve.com/assets/base/doc/lpg.pdf

storm
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Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by storm » Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:20 pm

geraldm wrote:It looks to me that I will need 2 tanks to have enough fuel to make 2 or 3 runs including warm up ( the bike don't move until the top of the thermo housing is touchy hot and of course now with LPG the reg will need to also heat up before I can expect it to preform at WOT. )
There was a race car (curcuit racing) a few years ago that was built to race in Australia's Bathurst 12 hours race (which was later extended to 24 hours). Mal Rose was the guy who owned the team, drove and built the car. This Ford Falcon ran on LPG but the rules would not allow filling of LPG tanks in the pit area so they devised a quick swap mechanism (not all that quick in reality but 2 guys could swap a full tank in the boot of the car in the time a normal race car could fill 120 litre tanks) and this enable the race conveners to allow the car to race. You may want to do some googling to see what hose ends they used (pretty sure it wasn't BBQ ends) and see if the idea would suit your bike.
Every job is a self-portrait of the person who did it. Autograph your work with excellence.

Fuel flow requirements calculations viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1638

C3H8
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Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by C3H8 » Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:55 am

Storms comment triggered me to recall a similar situation one of our Canadian teams had in the mid to late 80's. They were racing a modified F150 in the Baja race. It had a 351 Windsor modified extensively. There would be no place to fuel it and it would take too much time. They installed 3 or 4 100LB liquid cylinders in a special rack(s) in the box with Fork lift tank adapters. When they arrived at a check point they yanked the cylinders and replaced them with a prefilled set. Change over took less then a minute which gave them a big advantage over the gasoline units. As I remember they did quite well that year in this event. It was either 1st or 2nd in their class.

geraldm
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Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by geraldm » Fri Jan 03, 2014 10:46 am

I'm guessing that the guys in Aus used hyd. couplers for the quick change , they can take pressures in excess of 5000 lbs. if in good condition do not leak and with some models the couplers can be disconnected under pressure and reconnected under pressure with no fluid loss ( and still have a better than most liquid supply and would be thread friendly as far as fittings and connection are concerned .

I've been drawing up a bit of a system like this for the bike but haven't really said much about it but in all honesty I see nothing wrong with going with something like that .

Now back to the tanks .. what do you guys think is the best way to mount , upright or inverted , ?? I like the idea of inverted with valve at bottom or should I mount upright with a dip stick for liquid .. NOTE I haven't came across a dip tube that is longer than 12 inch or so .. Can they be made up and installed at any length ??

For my remote vessel that I will use for filling will most likely be the saddle tank from my motor home , it has all the bells and whistles on it gauges and so on and should be easy to get filled at most any propane station . I will simply strap it down in the box and it will look like it is in service . they can fill like any other vehicle tank . Not sure how big the tank is I just remember that if close to empty it will take around 100 buck to fill . the last couple of days we have had a ton of snow and cold but I will go dig the side of the motor home out and take a short video of the unit .

I appreciate the input from both of you guys . makes for good threads . thanks for your time . any thoughts ??
Now how the hell did that happen ?

geraldm
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Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by geraldm » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:16 am

just a short video of whats going on with the Dragons' propane conversion http://youtu.be/yrJNo_Dl70E
Now how the hell did that happen ?

C3H8
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Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by C3H8 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:47 am

Just watched your video on the linkage. Looks pretty good. Minor concern the crimped metal on the return spring cable might catch on the edge of the mixer casting but it seemed to clear ok with repeated motion. I did not understand your comment on the two vacuum ports on the intake. What were you planning to attach there? The vacuum is too strong for your primer in that location. I see you have not attached a vacuum line to the primer yet. That has to be plumbed into the base of the 200 mixer. You will have to drill and tap the opening for that. The corner right by the vapour line would work. It would also be a very short line then for quick starting.

The only other comment I would add is the main lock off should have the solenoid vertical if possible. It is not critical but in its current position the fine black powder seen in propane from time to time can migrate to the top of the piston inside the shaft easier if the solenoid is sideways or pointing down. It is not critical in your case considering the actual running time annually of the unit.

geraldm
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Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by geraldm » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:05 pm

yes Bumpstart said the same thing to much vac down there , so I just drill into the holley base plate the same size or a tad larger than the outlet in the SV and then just drill a larger hole and tap for brass fitting ?

Also do you know where I can buy one of these or something that does the same job ? I did talk to Trevor but as usual I didn't do a very good job of explaining myself to him and didn't seem to know what I was meaning . I did order a vacuum one but turns out that is not what I want .I found lots of that stuff in Australia but most don't ship to Canada .. It wouldn't need to be Peel so long as it does the same thing ..

The SV will be used for cold start but will also be activated just before WOT just to get that little extra fuel when under boost . Image
Now how the hell did that happen ?

bumpstart
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Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by bumpstart » Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:53 pm

if your stuck i can buy one here for you and slip it in the mail


on the 200 ( if like the 225 ) there should be several blind screws on the corner edges of the mixer body that can be removed and replaced with the 1/8 nipples to provide vac points for the SV, and for power valve and or for the feedback control vacuum ( not applicable for you )
they basically rout so they sit after the pressure drop of the mixer,, but before the throttle plates of your TB
\
if they are not provided then they could be routed into your FB ( if above thottle plates )

the TB should also provide you with purge air ( above throttles ) ,, a vac advance port adjacent the throttle ( ported air ) and manifold vacuum ( below throttle plates )

the purge air port can be used to take the SV/ powervalve routing if otherwise not used ,, but in this case it is best used to feed ( vac brake ) air to the tops of your oil metering pump nipples

the ported air we use for your vac advance

and engine vacuum for gauges

back to the 200.. on its entry,, on the side there is a casting boss that you drill and tap to 1/8 or 3/16 nipple to provide the reference signal back to the convertor
( vacuum above the mixer )
this is routed to a nipple placed where the brass perforated cover is on the lid of the model E

with this hooked up,, the convertor will ramp the vapour pressure up and down with vacuum and boost , and is all that is required to make a 200 or 225 suit blow through boost
when the going is hard, don't retard, remember your lubrication

geraldm
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Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by geraldm » Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:32 am

That's a nice offer bumpstart I really do appreciate it and before I done maybe take you up on that but I do have a couple options open yet , there is one on e-bay from AUS. LPG blue I believe is the name . he says he might not send to Canada I have contacted him have not got a reply yet , there are components that do basically the same job as the PC30 but most are for dual fuel from what I gather and some look like crap ( to late in the game to start using inferior parts ) . I will PM you if things don't work out .thanks .

Me thinks we are building the only propane powered turbo ed rotary motorcycle with a VS drive not to name a hundred other things ,,. I sure there can't be another one like it .

Now back to the vapor feed , don't like to admit it but I am a little confused about the ports . Now on my mixer there are three sections , #1 the top or hat with inlet, #2 the throttle body , and #3the Holley base plate which has no ports . In section 2 there are 2 plugs on the opposite side of the inlet one has a Allan head flywheel side it is the lower one which is below the throttle plate at idle ( So it full vac at idle , dropping off as throttle plate opens ).. The other one has a bolt head alternator side and looks like it will be above the throttle plate at idle ( low vac at idle so it for the vac advance ) now in the air horn inlet there is a little trap that I think should go to the little brass screen port in the top of the converter ( I can't seem to get pictures up on this forum so I will take a short video and point out all the ports and plugs that I talking about ,.. ) but I think the one where you drill into the side of the inlet is already there in a little air scoop at the bottom of the inlet with a plug ,I think that one goes to the brass screen on the top of the converter . I will also remove the plug below the throttle plate and see how big the hole is ? Randy suggested to drill the Holley base plate and thread for the SV instead of using the allan plug hole but it's not very thick , maybe if I go in on a angle it would work OK . i will take a little video and post it asap .
Last edited by geraldm on Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Now how the hell did that happen ?

geraldm
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Re: Propane conversion on Dragons' Breath Mazda 13b engine

Post by geraldm » Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:17 pm

australia choice auto parts an ebay seller agreed to sell me the cp30 @ $36.50 ,, shipping costs $20.10 the only way they would ship ( I see on ebay some a-hole from Canada ripped a strip with negative feedback because it took more than 2 days for shipping so I figure that is why he doesn't ship here anymore ) , I expecting maybe 2 weeks but maybe less if I lucky , seems to me it was around 10 days when I shipped to Australia . anyway thanks again for the offer to send me one ,I'll remember that .
Now how the hell did that happen ?

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