O.Reg 211/01 - Allowable Activities for the Hobbyist

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Frank
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O.Reg 211/01 - Allowable Activities for the Hobbyist

Post by Frank » Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:38 am

ONTARIO REGULATION 211/01 - PROPANE STORAGE AND HANDLING

The following section of this regulation seems to imply that the automotive hobbyist is prohibited from performing his/her own propane conversion:

Prohibited activities
12. (1) Where this Regulation requires that an appliance or any equipment be approved, no person shall,
  1. offer for sale, sell, rent or buy;
  2. install;
  3. use; or
  4. supply propane to,

an appliance or equipment unless it is approved or will be approved prior to being put into use. O. Reg. 211/01, s. 12 (1).

(2) Despite subsection (1), a person may take any of the actions set out in subsection (1) with respect to any of the following appliances or equipment even if they are not approved:
  1. Manually operated industrial appliances that have an input of not more than 6 kilowatts (20,000 British thermal units per hour).
  2. Bunsen burners.
  3. Stationary propane engines, and portable propane engines, that are not part of a vehicle.
  4. Portable propane equipment used for construction or repair of a road.
  5. Propane hand torches connected to a cylinder having a propane capacity of not more than five pounds by weight.
  6. Appliances connected to a container having a propane capacity of not more than 0.45 pounds by weight.
  7. Mobile asphalt or tar pots that are heated with propane.
  8. Propane vehicles. O. Reg. 211/01, s. 12 (2).

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In actual fact, TSSA interprets subsection (2) to mean that OEM propane vehicles (vehicles supplied from the factory) do not require certification by a licensed propane mechanic. As a new vehicle, Transport Canada has certified that these vehicles meet all applicable codes.

As for work done by unlicensed mechanics (auto mechanic hobbyist), the work done by a person to his own vehicle is allowable by TSSA, provided he has the work inspected before the vehicle or modification is put into service. The hobbyist is NOT permitted to perform any work on vehicles other than his own. In essence, the law allows a person to be the master of his domain but not anyone else's.

The danger with informing people that they are permitted to do work that really should be done by a trained professional is that they can easily get themselves killed. I do not encourage anyone to perform any work that should be done by a trained and licensed professional. However, I realize that people will do these things on their own and I do not want anyone to get hurt in the process. If you want to do a propane conversion yourself, I highly recommend that you work with the licensed installer who will be inspecting the vehicle for you.

One reason that I have put propane conversion information on to the internet is to keep people from getting killed from poor workmanship and ignorance. The following conversion is an excellent example of what I am trying to prevent: http://xfrias.tripod.com/Opel_GT/Opel_GT.html


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Mattelderca
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Post by Mattelderca » Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:44 pm

THAT POOR OPEL!!!!!!
Is this guy for real? Frank, you actually met him what's the story?

Frank
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Post by Frank » Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:09 pm

No, I never met him. I was actually just searching for propane conversions posted on the internet and came across that one way back in November of 2004. I emailed him to let him know that the work he had done appeared to be unsafe. In appreciation, he credited me for the advice.

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Post by Steptoe » Mon Feb 12, 2007 3:29 pm

Propane, installed correct, to NZ stds is far safer than petrol.
I was involved with LPG while working with S.C Johnson back in the mid '70s. It that time Freon as a aerosol propellant was SUSPECTED to do atmospheric damage. S.C Johnson ordered a world wide directive for all manufacting plants to convert by a given date...and it was only months.
NZ at that time had no LPG safety stds, even down to electrical wiring for pumps...So we where blind.
Together with the NZ Labour Dept, BP/Todd oil and S.C Johnson we set the initial stds, for which most still std today.
We also had the 1st car fleet converted (well part of it lol)
In that time I have seen some horrific burn accidents (from gas leaks not fire), and the resaults of huge explosions...like the one in Spain where a tanker fell over a bank into a camp9ing ground...this turned out to be a ordinary oil tanker filed with LPG !!!!
Then there was a truck in NZ where the trailer with a transport tank came apart from the tractor unit, hit end on into a cliff, then rolled down into a gorge...no explosion and xrays of welds on the tank held up (the whole cone end of the tank was caved in.
There was a train derailment in the states, and a fire, they where trying to put the fire out instead of keeping the tanks cool....lot of ppl died.

And close calls like a car after filling had a bit of crap in the shut off ball, pouring out LPG but not fast enough for the access valve to shut. no one knew what to do!!! With a bit of wood against the ball and a wack with the jack the crap was blown out, shut off valve closed and all was good.

LPG is safer..IF Stds are maintained and ppl know what they are doing.
Im not a qualified installer...I do know the regulations from tank mounting to distance of lines from exhaust systems and double shielding to colours of tanks.
ALL these regulations and Stds have very good reasons...not keeping to them ppl Die

If you are going to service or install, know a qualified and approved person, and have a copy of all regulations and procedures. Never do anything to meet min stds, exceed them.

In NZ All cars have a 6month Warrant of Fitness...brakes steering structural rust , tyres etc etc etc If LPG must have a current LPG fitness cert (below) and visual check of fuel lines tanks mounts (LPG and/or petrol)
A LPG car also has a 12 month LPG Fitness check....from joints to the slightest damage of the LPG lines, tank paint and mounting points etc.
tanks are removed and re certified, pressure tested etc every 10 yrs

To my knowledge in NZ, in the last 30 odd yrs we have not had anyone killed or injured from a LPG installation....we have had ppl killed and injured from car petrol fires /explosions etc.

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Mattelderca
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Post by Mattelderca » Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:38 pm

OK, I am in Ontario and I am a true believer in the regulations. That being said, I would still like to do as much as I can myself. Now the search is on for a "willing" shop to assist in my conversion and provide the inspection. I have not made any direct calls to shops yet but I just know I'm going to be hitting my head against a wall. Am I worrying for not? Is there a shop anyone knows of in Ontario that is "willing" to help? I really would like to be a convert but if finding a shop gets too hard I'll have to stick with the petrol.
Cheers,

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Steptoe
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Post by Steptoe » Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:21 pm

Bottom line, from the installers perspective..his name goes at the bottom, anything go wrong and it is his head, income that is on the block.
For a qualified installer to sign off, one generally has to know the guy well and know you and your workmanship....
Your workmanship will be reflected in your car....

Your initial approach should be conservative...
If you ask if u mount the tank, fix the lines, and when doing so place line clips closer than spec, use heavier steel than spec for tank mounts, and higher grade nut/bolts etc
Ask him to supply hose and parts.
And that he connect hoses etc.
Make sure you know the regs on hose routing etc so when the time comes nothing is knocked back...
Even then it is a big ask....

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Post by Frank » Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:35 am

Greg J just informed me of another example of a bad conversion:
Fox FM wrote:Rattle Trap
Sarnia Police report a bizarre discovery in the London Line/Airport Road area earlier this week. Tuesday afternoon officers spotted a motorist who was apparantly looking for a more economical fuel source for his car. The 2 door Volkwagen had a Barbecue Propane Tank protruding from under the hood....the tank was sitting on the hot engine, connected by a rubber hose with the hood tied down with rope. A 53 year old Sarnia man, charged with operating an unsafe motor vehicle is to appear in court March 9th.

2007-02-15
Canoe also picked up that story:
JOHN MINER (Sun Media) wrote:Propane-powered car unsafe

A Sarnia man who used a propane barbecue tank to fuel his car has been charged with operating an unsafe motor vehicle.

The 53-year-old man is to appear in court on March 9, Sarnia city police said.

“It was very bizarre, a unique occurrence,” said Constable Bill Baines, media-relations coordinator.

The jerry-rigged car was spotted about 2:30 p.m. Tuesday by officers patrolling London Line Airport Road, Baines said today.

“They noticed the hood was up and obstructing the driver’s view.”

When the officers stopped the vehicle, they discovered the hood tied down with a rope.

Underneath the hood, a propane tank from a backyard barbecue was sitting on top of the hot engine block.

“It was connected to the car’s engine with a rubber hose, apparently to the fuel-injection system,” said Baines.

Sarnia police have driven propane cruisers to cut down on fuel costs in the past, he said, “but they were production models.”

A backyard barbecue may be perfect for grilling steaks, “but it’s not the way to power your car,” he added.

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